I accept Trump's somewhat a dufus, but the Russia conspiracy is a political orchestrated distraction.

your MAGA hat for easy reference?[/quote]

Oooo, big boy. I don't wear hats. Messes with my toupee.

I don't know whether it is or not, originally. There are other crimes being discovered though, so I'm not going to complain if some corrupt people get punished for them. Are you?

That's called a strawman — Baden

Maybe it's a straw hat.

I think a lot will be revealed, sure. I think more on Trump's opposition, and not because I need this for possible partisan reasons. I just think there will be much blow out and blow back because we should realize it is rather swampy in there without attributing the swamp word to anyone in particular.

Generally don't like any politician.

Speculating why so-and-so is upset proves nothing in regards to Mueller's ability to preform his job as required.

If the best you have is some off the wall strawman speculation, then you have nothing.

Also the arugment you are emphasizing is demanding proof a negative. Something else you should look up.

It is perhaps time to explain the political mechanics of this "investigation".

Let us take Manafort, for example.

1. The opposition already know there is no Russia conspiracy. It is their "insurance policy" if Trump won.

2. Russia conspiracy publicly and legally fails because political links between Clinton campaign and Steele composed dossier, along with Steele's Russian/Ukraine accomplices, exposed.

3. Investigate anybody involved with Trump campaign.....so Manafort.

4. Find Manafort has done possibly illegal things in the past, which is not related to Trump campaign.

How to try to use this against Trump.

5. Put legal pressures on Manafort to hopefully arrange a plea deal confession. Essentially get him to lie about Trump to get himself, Manafort, off of his own possible crimes.

Trump's possible response.

Protect Manafort from being forced to lie, may have to do deals with Mueller to let some FBI conspirators off. Maybe even back off from Clinton's crimes.

This is all Mafioso stuff. Dirty, dirty, dirty.

You'd think these MAGA people would be more concerned about the Russian interference in our politics than their precious Donald Trump, that is if their true aim is making America great. Russian threatens our sovereignty and independence, and not just that of the USA, but several other countries included. Instead of trying to undermine the FBI and the media, Trump should be trying to undermine Russian meddling. That is if his true goal was to further the interest of America; however, sadly Trump's goal has been and still is to further his own interest.

The truth is Trump's supporters have placed their king above America, above the law and above justice. This is not how we MAGA, and as joyful as they are now, I know that this country is full of people who understand all the sacrifices we have made to make it to where we are, and they are not about to throw all that away to simply shine in the popular politician flavor of the day. Some of us love this country and not the figure heads elected to leadership, and long after Trump is dead, these people and their children will still be pushing America down the correct path.

Do you even have any clue why Manafort is in trouble? Go on, I'll wait while you Google it.

Also the policy of separating immigrant parents (illegal and legal alike) from their children is, to my mind, the worst US atrocity since the War in Iraq. Not really sure why I'm the only one commenting on it here. — Maw

That policy was in affect during the Obama administration as well. When we have people seeking political asylum, in the numbers that we are, what do you expect? For us to leave them out in the sweltering heat? Have you seen what the temps are here in the desert? Have you seen the Wal*Mart Super centers that these kids are residing in? Do you really equate the two?

You do know that these people presenting themselves for political asylum KNOW that they might be separated and are coached repeatedly throughout their journey? There are volunteer lawyers who are on the Mexico side explaining the way it works, the possible separation and many still choose to go through. I have a hard time seeing that as being on the same level as "the worst US atrocity since the War in Iraq". But please, do expand your correlation.

The children are not breaking the law so they cannot be detained and given a court date to appear before a judge to claim political asylum, however their parent or parents are old enough and are given a court date and detained (30 days max) before they are being held for an unreasonable amount of time and are set free. While the parents are detained for their court date, they are incarcerated and that is when the children are separated from their parents. It is against the law to house men and women together, regardless if they are married seeking asylum. There was a time when we would try to keep the mothers and the kids together and separating the men but there is simply no more room to do so AND it is a deterrent.

True it is a policy that Trump could change with the stroke of a pen but until he does that, we are stuck with what we are and for me? Someone who lives in the desert? I say do what it takes to get those seeking asylum out of the elements and the rest can be sorted out later. It is the same thing I would be saying in the bitter winters of Chicago. It won't do any good to refuse these people shelter of any kind. Included in these children centers are: three meals a day, snacks, bathrooms, AC, organized games, X-Boxes on BIG screen TV's, showers, hair cuts and I could go on but just for a moment think about this:

Imagine being a border guard or an Army reservist, who has been charged to care for these kids instead of walking the border fence, which might seem like a posh job until that guard goes home. He goes home to his own school age child who is the same age as the kids in the detainment center, yet can barely put enough food on the table for his own. His kid goes without an X-Box or an adult on duty all day, like the kids in the detainment center have.

It's a less than ideal situation but are there crimes against humanity happening?
Are there images of people ripping off their clothes in 115* heat, in an effort to "cool off" and promptly dying, coming across on your news source?
Are there pictures of Turkey Vultures circling overhead outside of the USA/Mexico border because the USA is acting in an inhumane manner?

Tiff, this has nothing to do with the bloody weather. You don't have to baste the kids in honey and strap them to a pole on the middle of the desert in order not to rip them from their parents. It's crude and cruel and the Trump admin owns it fully. They didn't have to interpret the law this way and previous admins didn't. Besides, they said they chose to do this as a deterrent. Now imagine it was you getting a young child of yours taken from you. Please do that just for a second before you come out with this partisan clap-trap. This goes way beyond dems vs. Republicans. It's a simple matter of empathy.

That policy was in affect during the Obama administration as well. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

You can try and candy coat a turd but a big steaming pile of crap is still a load.

The policy was and is for criminal cases, not civil cases. Trump and his goons are the ones that decided to treat these crossing as a criminal offense instead of a civil case. Furthermore, the Republicans control the House, the Senate, the Presidency and the Office of the Attorney General. They have all the power to stop this right now, just as easy as they started it.

The truth of the matter is that Trump is abusing children and destroying families to try and push his political agenda. He created this situation and now he is using these children as hostages. It is monstrous to anyone with a human soul.

@ArguingWAristotleTiff
I'm actually horrified knowing that you are an empathetic person in general that you'd defend this scummy policy.

It is monstrous to anyone with a human soul. — Jeremiah

Worth repeating.

Tiff, this has nothing to do with the bloody weather. You don't have to baste the kids in honey and strap them to a pole on the middle of the desert in order not to rip them from their parents. It's crude and cruel and the Trump admin owns it fully. They didn't have to interpret the law this way and previous admins didn't. Besides they said they chose to do this as a deterrent. Now imagine it was you getting a young child of yours taken from you. Please do that just for a second before you come out with this partisan clap-trap. This goes way beyond dems vs. Republicans, it's a simple matter of empathy. — Baden

It doesn't have anything to do with the weather like living doesn't require air. The weather in Arizona is SURELY a factor (despite what you might think) but as I said it is not the ONLY factor. It is being used as a deterrent as decided by Jeff Sessions and there isn't squat anyone can do, empathy or not, until the message comes from the top.

It is entirely possible that Trump and Sessions are playing 'good cop, bad cop' but it does not change the simple logistics of the border. There is a border necessary and if it is not respected, what is the point of having a border? Why not just make it a free for all? Literally a free for all!

Strawman bullshit.

I get it, Tiff, you just can't see this people as human. That is very sad for you.

The truth of the matter is that Trump is abusing children and destroying families to try and push his political agenda. He created this situation and now he is using these children as hostages. It is monstrous to anyone with a human soul. — Jeremiah

WOW! Abusing children and destroying families? I am sorry, when did Trump send an invitation to these parents offering to make their children hostages?

The truth of the matter is that Trump is abusing children and destroying families to try and push his political agenda. He created this situation and now he is using these children as hostages. It is monstrous to anyone with a human soul. — Jeremiah

“And the other thing with the terrorists — you have to take out their families. When you get these terrorists, you have to take out their families! They care about their lives, don’t kid yourselves. They say they don’t care about their lives. But you have to take out their families.”

I get it, Tiff, you just can't see this people as human. That is very sad for you. — Baden

Come on Baden, don't say I have no empathy and then take it down.

I get it, Tiff, you just can't see this people as human. That is very sad for you. — Baden

Really? Is that your take away from what I have said?

I didn't take anything down. You seem to be incapable of realizing what's happening to these parents and children. It's sick.

You seem to be incapable of realizing what's happening to these parents and children. It's sick. — Baden

Baden, I GET IT but exactly what would YOU do?
Attempts at 'Mother May I' and 'Simon Says' have already been exhausted.

Do you understand why the children are not housed with their fathers?

Yes, they're just "immigrants" and it's all about politics and the wider border issue. Total strawman to detract from what's actually happening. You need to understand that you can have border security without rampant cruelty. Those are not the same issue.

It's obvious what I would do, I would stop separating children from their parents because it's absolutely inhumane. Stop conflating it with the wider border issue. You can build your insane wall if you want. I couldn't care less. But don't psychologically torture children and their parents. You just don't do that and get to call yourself a humane society.

Pretending this is the only option is you just being wilfully ignorant.

We can go back to treating it as a civil issue and not separate families.

You need to understand that you can have border security without rampant cruelty. — Baden

Like what happened in Germany? :scream: Just let everyone in until your leader figures out that the country cannot handle the influx and then put up the barbed wire fencing?

I distinctly remember a golden hearted forum member who chose to help those fleeing and crossing his country and how quickly he was overwhelmed. :heart:

It's obvious what I would do, I would stop separating children from their parents because it's absolutely inhumane — Baden

We cannot house detained families together, do you understand why they separate the men from the children and women?

Tiff, do you understand that you are still strawmanning? Nobody is talking about "letting everyone in". Send them all back if you want. We are talking abut a specific policy here.

Tiff, this is a new policy. You go back to doing what you did before. That's the answer.