A difference between my head and my torso doesn't make these separate individuals. — Metaphysician Undercover
Why can the head and torso not be considered as individual components or processes of the body? — Janus
The point is that all differentiation presupposes, consists in, real individual differences. — Janus
All boundaries and interdependencies are "porous", not absolute. But that does not entail that boundaries and interdependencies are merely arbitrary. Using your example, the question is 'What is it that allows and enables you to non-arbitrarily distinguish between your head as a whole and your torso as another whole? — Janus
I can see how you would claim that a difference is real, but on what principle would you claim that a difference is individual? — Metaphysician Undercover
Every difference is individual insofar as it is not exactly the same as any other difference. — Janus
That's the point I made, creating something produces impossibilities, not possibilities. It eliminates the possibilities which the creation of that thing excludes. — Metaphysician Undercover
The only differences you can reference which are always exactly the same, such as the numerical differences between pairs of numbers, are conceptual differences. — Janus
So, you are now changing the subject, since I was taking about actual differences. — Janus
Actual differences are individual, conceptual differences of course may be general, but this is irrelevant. — Janus
The difference between two natural forms, for example, can never be exactly the same as the difference between any other pair of forms. Thus each difference is unique, individual. — Janus
why wouldn't it do both? Your claim suggests that ultimately we will run out of possibilities. Unless of course there are an infinite number of possibilities. And if there are an infinite number of possibilities, then new possibilities has no effect on the number of possibilities. — Arne
And are not some foreclosed possibilities necessarily less attractive possibilities anyways? If not, then would they be foreclosed. And are not the new possibilities more likely to be a higher level possibilities than those that have been foreclosed? And even if the number of arguably higher level possibilities is fewer than the number of foreclosed lower level possibilities, then do we not have a quality/quantity distinction in which we are still arguably better off with the fewer? — Arne
And what about time in addition to probability? If the newly created or now emerged existing possibilities not only more probably, but if they are going to happen, then are now more likely to happen sooner than later? — Arne
You say there is difference, but no differences; to me that is a nonsensical statement. if there is difference then there is plurality and if there is plurality then there are differences. — Janus
Explain then how there can be difference in general without there being particular differences; the idea makes no sense to me. Also, if there were no actual particular differences then any conceptualized particular difference would be arbitrary. — Janus
are you suggesting that difference depends on the perceiver while the boundaries that enable to the perceiver to assign a difference does not? — Arne
.are you suggesting that difference depends on the perceiver while the boundaries that enable to the perceiver to assign a difference does not? — Arne
What I am saying is that Janus assumes the existence of independent boundaries . . . I argue that it is the mind which individuates. . . — Metaphysician Undercover
We're just going around in circles here. — Metaphysician Undercover
You have not demonstrated that there are actual differences. That was simply your claim, that there are individual differences, other than conceptual differences. I think that this is nonsense. I think that there is actual difference, in a general sense, but to say that there are actual differences, in the sense of individuated differences, without a mind to individuate those differences, is nonsense. — Metaphysician Undercover
People are uncomfortable with the notion of the universe as just a bunch of gray clouds of electrons (let us give them at least a minimal visualization) floating around and bumping into each other. — Arne
Why do you assume that I buy into your talk about boundaries? — Janus
Imagine a virtual field of fluctuating intensities (that would seem to be the most minimal determinate model we can imagine); unless the intensities of all the fluctuations are exactly the same, then there are individual differences between the fluctuations. In fact no two fluctuations would ever be exactly the same. — Janus
Your example with numbers should have alerted you to the fact that although there is the same difference between many pairs of numbers there are also many (infinitely many) different numerical values between sets of numbers, so the infinitely many individual numbers represent infinitely many individual differences. — Janus
You need to explain how there could be actual difference without there being actual differences, unless there be only one actual difference; which, again, is nonsense. — Janus
To put it more succinctly, the question would be whether there are any electrons there, or just clouds, without the human act of individuation, which distinguishes individual electrons. — Metaphysician Undercover
The differences between any two sets of times may be the same or different in a purely temporal sense. — Janus
In a material sense no two differences can be the same. — Janus
Anyway keep up the sophistry, it's a good way to continue failing to find your way out of the bubble of bullshit. — Janus
I take it you are giving up on your argument that no differences are the same, accepting the reality that this is a false premise. — Metaphysician Undercover
You're blowing smoke. — Metaphysician Undercover
My main point all along has been that no two material differences can ever be the same. — Janus
Material differences are perceptual differences; they are essential to the recognition of objects. — Janus
Every human face, for example, is different than every other human face and is different in different ways in each case. The differences are not merely formal. — Janus
And then you have shape, skin colour, skin texture, nostril size...the list is endless and these are all material differences. — Janus
Of course the differences are formal, they are differences in form. The subject matter, "the human face" is the same in each case. What differs from one person to another is the form of the face, — Metaphysician Undercover
Sure, but there is no separation between form and matter, so they are as much material differences as they are formal differences. — Janus
This might be contradictory to your concept of matter, but I cannot help it if your concept of matter is inadequate. — Janus
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