Like Christianity? :P — Agustino
Well, I don't think death necessarily causes suffering, pain and distress, at least for the one dying. But old age, illness, etc. obviously do. — Agustino
At the same time, I think it is possible to, psychologically so to speak, not mind your own suffering. In other words, the suffering is still there, the pain, for example, is still there, but you don't mind it. It's hard to describe this state, I've sometimes experienced it. So I think it is possible to accept life, and see the pains as inseparable from the joys, and say yes to the whole ride, without "extinguishing" yourself as per Buddhism. — Agustino
I mostly agree on all these points. — Agustino
Yeah, I sort of agree, but this point is disputable. Suppose you have a son who is addicted to hard drugs - stuff like cocaine. In one sense, you do want to control him (so that he no longer takes the drugs). I think this desire to control him is, in this case, natural and justified. But the desire to control him will not be JUST for your own good, but also for his (your good is also related to his good, the two are, to some extent, mutually dependent). So in what sense do you say you should be unattached to saving your son? — Agustino
Okay, I agree! How do we go about developing positive qualities? — Agustino
The interesting thing on this point, is that I don't think there has to be a God. It is sufficient to have faith in Him. Faith transcends the rational, but is not thereby irrational. Having faith will still transform THIS LIFE. — Agustino
I see, I agree. — Agustino
Can you clarify what attachment means, and also why we should avoid attachment in love? For example, I love my son and I am attached to him, if he dies, I will be devastated. But I am not afraid of being devastated in that case... I would not want NOT to be devastated. The devastation is the expression of my love, I want to let it happen, why would I want to stop it? — Agustino
I think that anatta can be interpreted in a nihilistic way, sadly. — boundless
Is religion's role as the focus of community something that could be taken over by a non-religious entity? — frank
I am saying that Buddhism is accepted as it is accepted mostly because it is misunderstood through the lens of our hedonistic/consumerist culture. Buddhism is a palliative against pain and suffering. But the issue lies with the way it is used. It's used in order to mask resolvable pains as unresolvable ones, in order to maintain a diseased state of the soul, in order to prevent the pain from waking one up to one's own conditioning. Buddhism is a way of avoiding the need to look at your own face and to actually do something that can bring about a resolution. — Agustino
Our communities are built around attachments. Attachments to your home, attachments to your family, attachments to your children, attachments to your work, etc. — Agustino
What I meant is that we can develop positive qualities easier if we remove "negative ones".
— boundless
Okay, I agree! How do we go about developing positive qualities? — Agustino
Christianity is dead in the sense that its symbols no longer resonate for Western man - that much is true. — Agustino
Stories of heroes descending to the underworld were not regarded as primarily factual but taught people how to negotiate the obscure regions of the psyche. In the same way, the purpose of a creation myth was therapeutic; before the modern period no sensible person ever thought it gave an accurate account of the origins of life. A cosmology was recited at times of crisis or sickness, when people needed a symbolic influx of the creative energy that had brought something out of nothing. Thus the Genesis myth, a gentle polemic against Babylonian religion, was balm to the bruised spirits of the Israelites who had been defeated and deported by the armies of Nebuchadnezzar during the sixth century BCE. Nobody was required to "believe" it; like most peoples, the Israelites had a number of other mutually-exclusive creation stories and as late as the 16th century, Jews thought nothing of making up a new creation myth that bore no relation to Genesis but spoke more directly to their tragic circumstances at that time.
Above all, myth was a programme of action. When a mythical narrative was symbolically re-enacted, it brought to light within the practitioner something "true" about human life and the way our humanity worked, even if its insights, like those of art, could not be proven rationally. If you did not act upon it, it would remain as incomprehensible and abstract – like the rules of a board game, which seem impossibly convoluted, dull and meaningless until you start to play.
Religious truth is, therefore, a species of practical knowledge. Like swimming, we cannot learn it in the abstract; we have to plunge into the pool and acquire the knack by dedicated practice. Religious doctrines are a product of ritual and ethical observance, and make no sense unless they are accompanied by such spiritual exercises as yoga, prayer, liturgy and a consistently compassionate lifestyle. Skilled practice in these disciplines can lead to intimations of the transcendence we call God, Nirvana, Brahman or Dao. Without such dedicated practice, these concepts remain incoherent, incredible and even absurd.
That is the point I would like to address. In Christianity, the emphasis is on forming a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. You feel this as a living presence in your life, which naturally results in the development of qualities such as charity, self-restraint, and so on. However - not always. Even Christians who say they have been 'born again' will confess that their inherent negative tendencies (to put it in modern terms) still have a grip on them. Actually Paul laments this Romans 7:14. And I'm sure many a spiritual seeker will have gone through that - I know I do on a daily basis.
In Buddhist practice, the 'agency of change' relies on a different 'energy source'. It comes from clearly seeing and understanding the source of dukkha. Now when that is written out, it's easy to say 'well that's just a dogma'. And it would be, if you only wrote it out, or talked about it. But the point of Buddhist training is to really see how the process of clinging, attachment and craving is giving rise to unhappiness, moment to moment. And part of that, is also the realisation of the true nature, which is the aspect of the being that understands and responds to the teaching (known in Mahayana Buddhism as the Buddha Nature, Tathāgatagarbha). I guess it sounds complicated when you try and explain it, but the crux of it is similar to the Biblical teaching 'you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free'. But that 'knowing' is 'jnana', or direct insight into the cause of sorrow. That is a skill that can be learned and applied.
So developing positive qualities means, the pursuit of the 'three legs of the tripod', which are wisdom (prajna), morality (sila) and meditation (samadhi). Then the 'true nature' begins to manifest. Really a lot of the skill of meditation is learning how to get out of the way of that happening. — Wayfarer
There's some truth in what Agustino is saying, because there's a lot of trendy fashionable Western Buddhism that is indeed platitudes and emotional palliatives. Zizek picked up on the same trend. But, as Rumi said - there would be no fools' gold, if there were no gold. — Wayfarer
There is a lot of truth in that. A large part of the issue is that the tropes and imagery of the Bible hark back to an early agrarian, pre-industrial culture - sheep, fields and religious sacrifices. It is remote from the life and experience of the 21st century. But that is why interpretation is needed. There are still universal truths in the tradition, but they need to be constantly re-interpreted in light of changing circumstances. Obviously 'biblical literalism' is an impediment to that - that leads to fundamentalism and many other conflicts.
Karen Armstrong is a good commentator on this subject, not least because she has the perspective of comparative religion rather than Christian apologetics. I frequently cite of her OP's from a few years ago, titled Should we believe in belief? And it's a very good question. — Wayfarer
why we should avoid attachment in love? For example, I love my son and I am attached to him, if he dies, I will be devastated. But I am not afraid of being devastated in that case... I would not want NOT to be devastated. The devastation is the expression of my love, I want to let it happen, why would I want to stop it? — Agustino
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26 — Janus
("Master" here refers to the Buddha. Source: Suttacentral - (emphasis mine))
On one occasion a monk, feeling compassion, released a pig trapped in a snare. He became remorseful … “What was your intention, monk?”
“I was motivated by compassion, Master.”
“There’s no offense for one who is motivated by compassion.”
(same source as above (Suttacentral) - emphasis mine)On one occasion a monk released a pig trapped in a snare, intending to steal it before the owners saw it. He became remorseful … “You have committed an offense entailing expulsion.”
(source: Matthew 15, 16-20 NIV )16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”
As I said, I find this aspect of Buddhism hard to accept. It is quite disturbing, because I find nothing wrong in expressing love by being devasted. — boundless
Can you please show me where the story highlights that temporality and fragility makes everything more precious rather than less? I may be wrong, but I think this really is your own addition. There's nothing wrong if you believe this, but I see no indication for it in the story.
I can see indications in the story that you should be at peace when things and people break down because that is their nature - to ultimately break down. But there's nothing in there as far as I can see about the fact that things are temporal and fragile, that they are therefore more valuable rather than less. — Agustino
'Non-attachment' is also a basic theme of the New Testament:
'For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it'. Matt 16.
'If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me' Mark 10
'Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that fail not, where no thief approaches, neither moth corrupts. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.' Luke 12
'Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.' Luke 12
All of these sayings are perfectly in accord with the spirit of the Buddhist nikayas. — Wayfarer
I think that it's because 'emotional indifference' is not at all the same as 'non-attachment'. In both religions, there is an understanding that the peace that arises from God's love (for Christians) or realisation of Nirvāṇa (for Buddhists) is such that even the witnessing of terrible tragedies doesn't undermine it. But it doesn't undermine empathy - far from it, in fact. — Wayfarer
When I was young, I had a casual job as wardsman in the casualty ward of a Catholic teaching hospital (called Mater Misercordiae, 'mother of mercy'). The nursing sisters exemplified this quality of 'un-attached compassion'. Several times I witnessed the senior nurse comforting people in terrible states of distress, whose loved ones had just died. I was deeply moved by her ability of 'suffering with' in these cases. Yet she had to then go back to her duties in a very busy suburban casualty ward straight away afterwards. I think that kind of compassion really does require tapping into a spiritual source. Of course, this is what the Catholic symbolism of 'the sacred heart' refers to. You actually find iconographic representations of the same idea in Chinese Buddhism. — Wayfarer
As far as the Buddha is concerned, have a read of the monk with dysentery — Wayfarer
I actually disagree with you guys on this.Agreed, the spirit is somewhat similar (especially if one considers Mahayana Buddhism)!
I want also to add that many "hard" expressions were typical in that cultural contexts. So, for example, the quote of the Gospel according to St. Luke provided by Janus:
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)
probably meant that, in order to follow the "vocation", one should be able to "let go" even of her/his family attachments. Problem is, IMO, that translations cannot capture the intended meaning nowadays. We need also commentaries and interpretations. — boundless
This is non-attachment to one's life in favour of attachment to "lose [your] life for [his] sake". So it is still quite far from promoting non-attachment as a value in itself. Whereas Buddhism seems to promote non-attachment as a virtue. Christianity on the other hand promotes attachment to the right things as a virtue. There is an important difference over there.'For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it'. Matt 16. — Wayfarer
'If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me' Mark 10 — Wayfarer
'Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that fail not, where no thief approaches, neither moth corrupts. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.' Luke 12 — Wayfarer
'Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.' Luke 12 — Wayfarer
To me, this means that you must love God more than anyone or anything else, and relative to your love of God, you hate brother, mother, sister, etc."If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)
probably meant that, in order to follow the "vocation", one should be able to "let go" even of her/his family attachments. Problem is, IMO, that translations cannot capture the intended meaning nowadays. We need also commentaries and interpretations. — boundless
YES!Yet, according to Buddhism, to "escape" from samsara one must reduce attachments. On the other hand, in Christianity, Salvation is not "gained" by reducing attachments but by accepting God's Grace. Hence, in Christianity it is love is much more emphasized. — boundless
So far from "non-attachment" being a basic theme of the New Testament, I would say the theme is rather attachment to the right things. — Agustino
And what should you attach to? And where is this referenced?That's what 'non-attachment' is for - detach from what is unwholesome or deleterious. — Wayfarer
:brow:But of course if the superiority of Christianity over Buddhism is your fundamental point, then that is not something which is resolvable by debate. — Wayfarer
Depends. It's not just being unable to "let go" that causes the pain. There are other beliefs associated with it that are responsible for causing pain. For example, if someone isn't able to "let go" of their desires, then the end of life can be painful and cause distress SO LONG AS the person in question does not see a possibility to fulfil the said desires AFTER death. In this case, a Christian would believe that God will "wipe away every tear", and so they may not feel such pain and distress when death comes, even though they cannot let go of their desires.But for whoever is unable to "let go", thinking about the end of life is certainly painful and causes distress (meaning if one fears death, then death is certainly linked to suffering). — boundless
See, it's only when one sees the endless cylce of rebirths and redeaths as something negative that being unable to let go makes it painful.Also, Buddhists believe in rebirth and, for them, "death" is either Nirvana without remainder or leads to another life marked by old age, illness and so on (which, except for the case of a partially awakened one, means the continuation of a potentially endless cycle of rebirths and redeaths). — boundless
I largely agree with this here - it's also what happens when you stop wishing that things were different than they are. But even that is not a great way to put it. Because it implies that you don't have any wants or preferences (such as preferring that there is no pain). But those wants and preferences, at least for me, still existed in that state. Just that I wasn't "troubled" by the pain. It's difficult to explain.Personally, I would like to experience the state that you describe. But, IMO, this also means a reduction of "self concern" or more precisely a reduction of our tendency to strive to control things ("anatta", in a more experiential level, means "lack of control", see Anatta-lakkhana sutta (regarded to be the second discourse of the Buddha)). I think that the effect of "letting go" is roughly the state you describe. — boundless
But the resurrection is itself a matter of faith. Afterall, even if you saw the risen Christ, you always have at your disposal alternative explanations. So if you lack faith, if you lack the will to believe, and are instead cursed by unbelief (it's a problem of the will), then regardless of what you see, you will not believe.I do not understand, however, how it can be reconciled with the "traditional" position that if there is no resurrection, faith is vain (of course, I am not saying that you have to agree with that perspective but I wonder how you "deal" with this) (see e.g. 1 Cor 15:32 link "If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”"). In fact, there are a lot of Christian dogmas that I can find very hard to accept and, sadly, no one was able to give me a satisfactory answer to my doubts. — boundless
So the resurrection is something that is, by default, not seen. It is rather hoped for.Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Right, so then attachment can be the opposite of aversion, and Buddha's way being the Middle Way would strive to neither attachment to the positive (pleasure, let's say), nor aversion for the negative (pain).1) I think that "attachment" means clinging to positive experience in our life, in such a way that we cannot accept negative situations (which in my mind means we feel aversion). — boundless
Well, I think this centers around how we define love. See below.So, an unattached love might mean that I can accept that, for example, my son chooses a way of life that I would not like for him and I can still love him. — boundless
See, this I see as a problem. Love does not require positive feelings. I can be very upset at someone I love, or I can be disappointed with them, or even, why not, angry with them. All these feelings do not suggest in the least that I don't love them. Love is rather the choice, or better said, the will to like them REGARDLESS of how I feel. The will not to give up on them.Or, that I can be able to have positive feelings even to my "enemies" (i.e.desiring for them happiness and so on...). — boundless
Why should being saved from Samsara be this important?Maybe a possible Buddhist answer is that, there is nothing wrong in it but unfortunately that (alone) will not save you from samsara (honestly, I find this answer as disturbing but unfortunately it has some truth in it...) and in order to "achieve" release from samsara you should accept to "let go" even loved ones without, of course, stopping to love them. — boundless
I agree.A strong point of Christianity is that "love" is the highest virtue and there are various way for expressing it. Christianity has the strong point to be able to give meaning and value to suffering. Also, in Christianity we are not expected to change our condition and become somewhat "super-human", but we can give meaning and value to our experiences, actions and so on: something that everybody can do (in a way or an another depending on their possibilities...). — boundless
Yes, agreed!*see how Ananda is described here. I like him in particular, because unlike other famous disciples looks very "human" and I can relate to him much more than the others more "awakened" ones! :smile: — boundless
To me, this means that you must love God more than anyone or anything else, and relative to your love of God, you hate brother, mother, sister, etc.
In other words, I don't see this "let go" stuff to be the emphasis of the New Testament. The emphasis is rather "be attached to what matters most - God". — Agustino
Depends. It's not just being unable to "let go" that causes the pain. There are other beliefs associated with it that are responsible for causing pain. For example, if someone isn't able to "let go" of their desires, then the end of life can be painful and cause distress SO LONG AS the person in question does not see a possibility to fulfil the said desires AFTER death. In this case, a Christian would believe that God will "wipe away every tear", and so they may not feel such pain and distress when death comes, even though they cannot let go of their desires. — Agustino
Yet, according to Buddhism, to "escape" from samsara one must reduce attachments. On the other hand, in Christianity, Salvation is not "gained" by reducing attachments but by accepting God's Grace. Hence, in Christianity it is love is much more emphasized. — boundless
See, it's only when one sees the endless cylce of rebirths and redeaths as something negative that being unable to let go makes it painful. — Agustino
I largely agree with this here - it's also what happens when you stop wishing that things were different than they are. But even that is not a great way to put it. Because it implies that you don't have any wants or preferences (such as preferring that there is no pain). But those wants and preferences, at least for me, still existed in that state. Just that I wasn't "troubled" by the pain. It's difficult to explain. — Agustino
But the resurrection is itself a matter of faith. Afterall, even if you saw the risen Christ, you always have at your disposal alternative explanations. So if you lack faith, if you lack the will to believe, and are instead cursed by unbelief (it's a problem of the will), then regardless of what you see, you will not believe.
So St. Paul is right - if there is no resurrection, our faith (I read this as religion) is in vain. — Agustino
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
So the resurrection is something that is, by default, not seen. It is rather hoped for. — Agustino
The interesting thing on this point, is that I don't think there has to be a God. It is sufficient to have faith in Him. Faith transcends the rational, but is not thereby irrational. Having faith will still transform THIS LIFE. — Agustino
Right, so then attachment can be the opposite of aversion, and Buddha's way being the Middle Way would strive to neither attachment to the positive (pleasure, let's say), nor aversion for the negative (pain). — Agustino
See, this I see as a problem. Love does not require positive feelings. I can be very upset at someone I love, or I can be disappointed with them, or even, why not, angry with them. All these feelings do not suggest in the least that I don't love them. Love is rather the choice, or better said, the will to like them REGARDLESS of how I feel. The will not to give up on them.
So in the case of my enemies, I may still feel anger towards them, but only because they are doing wrong and destroying their own souls for example. Or in the case of my son, I may feel upset because he is harming himself. Or just like the Japanese Samurai, I can feel great compassion while slashing my enemies in half. All these actions do not necessitate the absence of love. Sometimes, it may be the loving thing to do to be angry at someone you love. — Agustino
183. To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
Why should being saved from Samsara be this important? — Agustino
As I explained, when Paul refers to "faith" in that quote, I read him as referring to the Christian religion. When I said that even if there is no God, faith in Him is sufficient to grant all that one needs for THIS LIFE, I use faith with a different sense. The sense I quoted:If there is no God, resurrection is not possible. So, Paul says that faith is vain if there is no resurrection. Hence, as I see it, Paul says that if there is no God, faith is vain.
So, how can you say that faith is not vain if there is no God and, at the same time, be in agreement with Paul? — boundless
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
But then, in the negativistic interpretation, Nirvana becomes the real suicide. Shooting yourself in the head is not a real suicide, because you will reincarnate, and in a much worse state than before, it will take you much longer until you can get to the human stage again, from where you can commit the real suicide (Nirvana). I see this interpretation as the essence of the life-denying, impotent, impulse.In the "negativistic" interpretation of "Nirvana", the ONLY reason to leave Samsara is to avoid endless and (ultimately) aimless. — boundless
Because it is aimless and endless. — boundless
But... if that cycle had a purpose, then it would have an end. And an end means precisely a death. There can be no end without death, for how can life, whose very nature is change, suddenly come to a halt without ceasing to be life?But... that cycle is endless. Above all, it is endless in the sense that it is aimless. There is no purpose. I think that such a perspective is very distressing and frustrating. — boundless
Yes.If desires will be fulfilled, then one should not fear death. In fact, I think that some biographies of Christian figures show people that are not afraid of death because they have faith. On the other hand, Buddhists Arahants do not fear death because they are "unattached". — boundless
So in summary, I agree, if there is no Resurrection, then there can be no Christian religion (faith in one sense). But the Resurrection is itself a matter of faith (different sense here), and it cannot be any other way. — Agustino
But then, in the negativistic interpretation, Nirvana becomes the real suicide. Shooting yourself in the head is not a real suicide, because you will reincarnate, and in a much worse state than before, it will take you much longer until you can get to the human stage again, from where you can commit the real suicide (Nirvana). I see this interpretation as the essence of the life-denying, impotent, impulse. — Agustino
But... if that cycle had a purpose, then it would have an end. And an end means precisely a death. There can be no end without death, for how can life, whose very nature is change, suddenly come to a halt without ceasing to be life? — Agustino
So I don't think that the perspective of an endless Samsara, which contains both pain and pleasure is necessarily distressing and frustrating. It is like an adventure - you never know what you will find the next time around. It is sort of exciting - once you get to see the big picture, and you stop anchoring yourself merely in your present condition as if this was all that there will ever be. In a way, an eternal Samsara is a good thing - it means that all pain (and pleasure alike) will ultimately come to an end. So if you are suffering now... fret not, it too will end. — Agustino
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