Torturous pain is the acceleration of the structural pain of living. In a sense, the structural pain is almost imperceptible torture. It's a sigh, rather than a scream.

Torturous pain is the acceleration of the structural pain of living. In a sense, the structural pain is almost imperceptible torture. It's a sigh, rather than a scream. — darthbarracuda

Agreed, but this would mainly be about the decay of the body leading to death, right? How about the other forms of structural suffering? Can you elaborate on that?

I'm weary of discussing the pains of existence. Prayer, meditation and music are more expedient, and less intrusive to others.

Nothing is gained by these discussions. The same people say the same things and nothing ever changes, nobody ever convinces anyone else. Philosophy is irritating after a while because of this. It's clearly narcissistic, auto-erotic, libido. Every argument is an erection.

Awareness is a curse. But it's better to try to make peace with the world instead of waging war against it. Nothing is going to change, no sophisticated argument is going to convince people not to have children because having children is not an action undertook by reason. It's a lost cause to try to find reason where there is none, assuming that is your real intention.

Everything that causes harm is after the fact. Being born is the efficient cause to the harms. I’m sure the consensus here is that people will be born to be little versions of their ideal person (hint: they usually think it’s themselves!). How is that not the height of narcissism?

I think the reason suffering is tolerated relates to humans religious and superstitious past.

In my very religious background humans were blamed for all of suffering and God for none of it.(a bogus and harmful dichotomy)

There is also the notion of Karma and the just world hypothesis.

Atheists secularism is a latecomer as a major movement. So I think even the nonreligious have assimilated this historical cultural attitude towards suffering.

I think that the valid arguments for these beliefs have been non existent but the beliefs have emotional and coercive force anyway.

So this is why I believe rational argument is a way to promote antinatalism. But we have to keep on raising these issues like the picture I have outlined here of superstitious reasons for tolerating suffering.

As I was saying, the efficient cause of suffering (and th need for its alleviation) is procreation. Similarly, the deficits that we must “overcome” are caused by procreation. No deficits have to be overcome in the first place if no one is born.

Yes but for some reason a lot of people do not seem to believe this and most people apparently will not blame parents for their child's suffering.

I don’t see it as a need to blame. Rather, it is a need to see where suffering begins. It begins at birth. Non existence never cared. We can’t even postulate a view from nowhere. But people are worried that there needs to be a view from somewhere! Albeit, they are the arbiters of this somewhere through their progeny!

It’s as banal as banno.

The problem is people are blaming suffering on something just the wrong thing.

I don't see the benefit of a no blame position.

I want an accurate causal picture of reality.For me the worst kind of suffering is pointless suffering and I think this arises from not expecting people to justify having children.

I think suffering emerges from various dynamics including embodiment and is exacerbated in different ways but parents reproducing is the initial spark leading to a possible life of gross suffering (or maybe a mediocre or fairly satisfactory life). Nevertheless any individual moment of suffering is facilitated by needlessly creating someone with the gross capacity to suffer.

To me lack of consent and pointlessness are coequal to with suffering as reasons not to procreate.

Back in the day people nigh say it’s due to creating labor for their farm or to pass on their family:tribal lineage. Now the excuses are near the individual level of giving an “opportunity” coupled with a “lifestyle” choice if it’s not a downright accident. But for the “thoughtful” people it’s to create an “ideal” person (i.e a version of themself).

suffering — schopenhauer1

One of the problems of discussing "suffering" is that we have not qualified it or quantified it. Below is a standard existential pain chart used in hospitals. The same scale is used to rate physical pain and existential pain. Clearly, not all pain is equal or alike. The pain of sneezing when one has broken ribs is physically about schop 8 -- but existentially it's schop 2. There is a clear reason for, and a probable end to the pain. Existential schop 7, the pain of realizing that nobody likes you -- not even slightly -- is physically schop 1. Existential schop 10 -- wishing one had never been born because life is a cruel and not very amusing joke told entirely at one's expense, may also be a physical pain, but at existential schop 10, it doesn't matter.

This genuinely made me laugh out loud. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: . You get three schops.