Some people miss the good old days, before mass media really hit its stride, but don't blame the rank and file American. They are not, and never have been, in charge of the economy. The shift to a consumer society of not very learnéd consumers is a creation of the bourgeoisie. Blame them. — Bitter Crank
I didn't say they were lazy nor that they have to work twice as hard individually.Ah right, so people's salaries were halved and they have to work twice as hard now but they're still lazy fucks. Which one is it? Make a choice. — Benkei
Ever heard of inflation? It's a simple question of supply v demand.Salaries didn't half. They did stagnate — Benkei
I live in society, it's affecting me, as it happens all around me. My children will live in society too, it will affect them, and so on so forth. You're behaving as if I lived on a mountain, and not sorrounded by the activities that other people engage in.And? Nobody is forcing you to have sex. How exactly is this your problem? — Benkei
I think one of our key areas of disagreement would be my, I guess you could call it bottom-op approach, which would seek to change opinions rather than laws. I'm skeptical of government dictating things like sexual behavior - I think that's a horrible idea in fact - but I don't think individual freedom necessarily leads to hedonism or precludes a sense of communal responsibility. — Erik
I'm not sure what the solution is to be honest. I know what the problem is though. — Agustino
I didn't say they were lazy nor that they have to work twice as hard individually. — Agustino
Ever heard of inflation? It's a simple question of supply v demand. — Agustino
I live in society, it's affecting me, as it happens all around me. My children will live in society too, it will affect them, and so on so forth. You're behaving as if I lived on a mountain, and not sorrounded by the activities that other people engage in.
I will address the other parts of your post at some other time, since they require longer answers. Need to get back to work now. — Agustino
You always have good practical advice. Are we just screwed? I mean, random individuals can "free" themselves from the dominant values and live a life on the margins of society. But how would you go about starting a grassroots movement encouraging people to not consume? Yeah, probably not going to generate a lot of momentum haha... — Erik
Maybe with a combination of increased automation and UBI and other such things a paradigm shift in social values can take place. Just throwing out ideas... — Erik
I see a resurgence in collectivist programs as well. With a practical implementation through the sharing economy. Although quantitative research on size and growth is sparse, it's definitely here to stay and might account for 50% of the economy eventually (its seemingly maximum potential according to PwC).
There's an undercurrent to move to basics, more natural life styles as well. There's a lot of initiatives going on that are voluntary that allow people to meet up with like minded people. — Benkei
A slight correction: A very large paradigm shift (like a revolution) will be required before there is any sort of UBI, especially an adequate UBI. The reason a very large paradigm shift will be required first is that too large a share of wealth is tied up by the super-rich. The paradigm shift will be the one that allows transferring a significant portion of their wealth (like most of it) to the rest of the population. (Do not hold your breath waiting for the revolution.) — Bitter Crank
I agree with your observation. But what do you reckon is the cause? Less opportunities? Too much bureaucracy? Lower salaries? — Agustino
Yes, people can free themselves of the dominant values and live their lives out on the margin. There are, actually, quite a few people out there. Most of them ended up on the margin because they went broke, not because they embraced radical values. — Bitter Crank
There has been a "simple living" moving operating under various names and auspices for the last 50 years, at least. It appeals mostly to people who can afford to live simply -- single people or couples without children who have very modest material aspirations. Usually "simple living" people are educated idealists. It also includes people who failed to make much money and needed a respectable cover. — Bitter Crank
I live in society, it's affecting me, as it happens all around me. My children will live in society too, it will affect them, and so on so forth. You're behaving as if I lived on a mountain, and not sorrounded by the activities that other people engage in. — Agustino
I envision an age, say, 100 years down the line when: we no longer envy the rich, we value our time more than superfluous things, we think the purpose of education involves more than its potential financial payout; etc. In other words, a shift in our collective way of being. Not poverty - simplicity. Not laziness - energy partly redirected to other (perhaps artistic or maybe community-oriented) endeavors once our basic needs are met. — Erik
Yeah these are the ones who are forced to live simply. I find the free choice to live in such a way to be admirable. Maybe I'm insane but it has a lot of appeal to me. To not have a price? To not act obsequiously towards the wealthy and connected? To look forward to working at something you love until the day you die, even if you make less money doing so? To me, those are indications of a genuine and noble freedom. There's even an aristocratic element to it imo, with the obvious proviso that this only holds true for cases where it's freely chosen rather than imposed through less elevated reasons (lack of work ethic, lack of intelligence, etc.)
And again it doesn't necessarily involve living like a pauper. One has to forego many things, there's no denying that, but what they gain may make it worthwhile.The big thing, I think, is particular to our context: the complete lack of social recognition. It's a matter of shifting perspectives. Not an easy task, obviously, especially given the various (powerful) forces shaping images of "success" - these things are historically contingent. — Erik
In principle this is very much possible with robotics, provided the resulting benefits from robotic production are shared. As it looks like now, it will be the owners of capital capable of affording to build robots and therefore retain all the profits they generate and the chasm between haves and have-nots will only increase. We have to anticipate on this early and effectively. — Benkei
Yet, when writing our bottom line, my partners and I said, regardless of whether this becomes a financial success what we want to win from it is 1) acknowledgment, 2) attempt to build ourselves and 3) leverage that to have the freedom to choose jobs in the future. We're not in it for the money, we're in it because it's an exciting new idea that nobody else thought of. We're doubly excited because it avoids a huge social cost. Only after those considerations do we entertain ideas of becoming rich (not in the least because there's still a zillion hurdles to cross before a start up is a success). But we think even when we fail, we can still reach our goal number 3). — Benkei
I think I would agree with him too. The fissures we notice across the cultural landscape go too deep to heal, precisely because we're dealing with a phenomenon where the two groups have so diverged from each other, that they effectively live in two different worlds.
The technological, social progressive, Democrat, global elite along with most who work for them (corporatists) have a vision of society that is totally antithetical to more "rooted" values. On the other hand, the traditionalist, conservative, Republican, rural folk have a completely different worldview which values local community, family ties, social conservatism, etc. significantly more.
There is no way that these differences can be overcome peacefully. It's simply impossible. The two groups have got accustomed to entirely different ways of life. And the former feel that they're just about (or were just about) to get the world the way they wanted, so they will not slow down, while the latter feel that they're about to lose their world as they know it.
Of course, ideally, a "merger" between the two would be great. Adopting some of the social conservatism from the Right, and combining it with some of the more humane economic policies of the Left. But I have doubts if it will actually happen peacefully. — Agustino
Now, if the previous generation wants to create a "better" world for the next generation, it should only be done under predictable circumstances, which, naturally, means that the changes would be very little and experimental for the most part. — Coldlight
I see. The alternative is to start some business of your own, you can, in time, make a lot better money that way, than staying on a wage. I really do think more young people should turn to entrepreneurship. It has worked well for me.Many are saddled with student debt, most companies don't offer reasonable raises (it's generally accepted that the best way to regularly increase your salary is to change jobs every two years, which isn't always easy to do). There are a number of reasons. — Maw
I'm from Eastern Europe, and here weddings are expensive, however, most people recover the money and actually earn much more from the wedding than they spend. That's why many times you'll find that people buy a car, or buy an apartment after a wedding. The reason for this is that here everyone who attends is expected to give money. So, say that a couple attends your wedding, they will give at least $50 (and quite a few will give more). Now if you have ~400 guests, roughly in groups of 2, that is at minimum 200*50 = $10,000. Now you may spend $4,000 here, but you'll certainly pocket the difference. Now, to give you an idea, average take-home wage is around $600-800 here. Taking $800 as the upper limit, that means that from a wedding you can potentially make in revenue more than you'd make in an entire year of work.I have two close friends getting married soon, and they've had to scrap and save a lot in order to afford it, despite one of them being in a committed relationship with the girl for eight years. — Maw
Well, if promiscuity is seen as acceptable socially, then regardless of how well I try to educate my kids at home, they will attend school, and see all the "cool" kids engaging or talking about such behaviour, and the peer pressure will make them think it is alright. That's just one example. Then I will also have to deal with friends whose marriages fall apart because of it, and so on so forth. It's going to create trouble in all sorts of ways. Do you think I'm wrong about that? I mean, the way people act and behave, and the cultural expectations around certainly influence what is happening.How, exactly, does this affect you? — Maw
I'm very curious why you think that social conservatism cannot be squared with an unfair or tenous economy?The problem is social conservatism cannot be squared with individualism, even in a modest sense of the term, and empirically it can't be squared with an unfair or tenuous economy. — Maw
The alternative is to start some business of your own, you can, in time, make a lot better money that way, than staying on a wage. I really do think more young people should turn to entrepreneurship. It has worked well for me. — Agustino
I'm from Eastern Europe, and here weddings are expensive, however, most people recover the money and actually earn much more from the wedding than they spend. That's why many times you'll find that people buy a car, or buy an apartment after a wedding. The reason for this is that here everyone who attends is expected to give money. So, say that a couple attends your wedding, they will give at least $50 (and quite a few will give more). Now if you have ~400 guests, roughly in groups of 2, that is at minimum 200*50 = $10,000 — Agustino
Well, if promiscuity is seen as acceptable socially, then regardless of how well I try to educate my kids at home, they will attend school, and see all the "cool" kids engaging or talking about such behaviour, and the peer pressure will make them think it is alright. That's just one example. Then I will also have to deal with friends whose marriages fall apart because of it, and so on so forth. It's going to create trouble in all sorts of ways. Do you think I'm wrong about that? I mean, the way people act and behave, and the cultural expectations around certainly influence what is happening. — Agustino
I'm very curious why you think that social conservatism cannot be squared with an unfair or tenous economy? — Agustino
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