He did come pretty late on the scene. There were others closer to the actual formalization of fascism in Italy. Like, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Gentile or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filippo_Tommaso_Marinetti

Am I mistaking fascist futurism for modernism here?

So would you count Gentile as a Modernist??

Would you count the Futurist Manifesto as a work of modernism?

As Eco suggests, it's a superficial fascination with the power of technology, but without the critical individualistic spirit that underpins it. It's loving fast cars while hating thermodynamics.

It's loving fast cars while hating thermodynamics. — Banno

Then we invent electric cars!

Fascism is necessarily on the rise, and it may be the salvation of the race — Marcus de Brun

:vomit:

Posty.. you can do better than that... :vomit:

Hit me with an enlightened contradiction!

Perhaps America is making you lazy.

A more thorough response or we'll deport you to Putin-land... the New Land of the 'Almost' Free.
M

If you are interested in the topic in respect of contemporary Facism, there are far better examples than China. Putin for example has all the trappings, behaviors and psychology of the historical Fascist dictator.

M

No, it's just depressing that you believe such things. Nothing to address here.

Perhaps this could be a subject of another thread, but it seems to me of relevance...

Compare and contrast, if you will, fascism with imperialism. Some periods of ancient Rome seem to exemplify some levels of both. Is imperialism necessarily bad, or can its negative side be lessened? Has it spread civilization, helping modernize many countries? Or is it a mixed blessing? It appears to me that the USA is an empire that disavows its own nature, after picking up somewhat where the British Empire left off. Thoughts?

Fascism is inherently not able to achieve the sort of international cooperation needed to counter climate change, nor to foster the technical developments that will be needed.

And that's the only comment I have for you.

Unless they lead by example. Think China...

China is not fascist.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/199457

I think that's pretty accurate...

OK, I'm differentiating Fascism from other authoritarian forms of government, and taking as my guide Eco's fourteen points.

The foremost reason I have for rejecting the idea that China is a Fascist state is that China is fr form rejecting modernism. Indeed, it is the greatest advocate for technical solutions, internationally, as is shown by the Belt and Road. But given that you have reservations about anti-modernism as a Fascist characteristic, that's not going to hold much weight with you.

China does not act for the sake of acting. It's actions in the South China Sea show considerable forethought; they won the was before players such as the US, Australia and Indonesia noticed that there was even a battle going on.

China does not appeal to a frustrated middle class. Instead it's the growth of the middle class that let out the pressure expressed in Tiananmen Square.

Hero worship, Machismo, and populism have a part in Chines life, but to no where near the extent they do in Fascist states - look at the Machismo and hero worship around Putin.

But the best argument against calling China Fascist is simply that Fascism shares nordic mythology; it is inherently European. That is, calling China Fascist is applying a Eurocentric standard to an asian country.

Russia is the better example.

China has its own long political development. In many ways it is now returning to it's own ancient government structure, which features a class of academicians who problem solve fairly independently of the prevailing politics.

You keep on treating fascism as if it were an exclusive thing to Nazism, which it isn't. Nobody mentions it but Japan was fascist in the past too, not just Nazi Germany and Italy for example.

You keep on treating fascism as if it were an exclusive thing to Nazism, — Posty McPostface

Actually in taking Eco's definition I'm taking Italian Fascism as the epitome.

Japan under Tojo featured most of Eco's criteria. Unlike China today.

Edit: But having said that, Tojo's association with Fascism comes from his association with Germany, more than his political philosophy.

@ssu, what do you think about this, in regards to China representing a fascist state? Any further thoughts welcome, as this is a pretty interesting way of presenting China as it currently operates.

↪Marcus de Brun
Fascism is inherently not able to achieve the sort of international cooperation needed to counter climate change, nor to foster the technical developments that will be needed."

To assert that Fascism cannot achieve international cooperation is a bit of a logical oddity.

Facism achieved international cooperation in WW2, and stuck with the committed cooperation until each cooperating state was effectively annihilated and each fascist dictator was executed or committed suicide. If that's not a good example of cooperation I don't know what is.

Presently Putin, cooperates with other dictators like al-Assad, in the ongoing fascist war against the Syrian People...

Your stated opinion here makes zero sense.

Furthermore the notion that more technology will solve the environmental problems that result from technology is part of the delusion that causes the problem to expand at an exponential rate?

?

"And that's the only comment I have for you. — Banno

Philosophy is not about getting into a strop. Make your point and back it up with evidence and reason.

Fascism is necessarily on the rise, and it may be the salvation of the race — Marcus de Brun

It appears you are applying for employment. Gulag general, perhaps.

It appears you are applying for employment. Gulag general, perhaps. — raza

Don't recall submitting an application for any particular post.

I would love someone to come up with an alternative to facism as a practical and real solution to the biggest crisis that humanity has faced since some of us descended from the trees.. (This was the general gist of my initial point which appears to have bruised some philosophical ego's)

Have a go at the idea....,rather than the old fool who has suggested it.

:yawn:
M

China has its own long political development. In many ways it is now returning to it's own ancient government structure, which features a class of academicians who problem solve fairly independently of the prevailing politics — Banno

After they cleared a previous generation of academicians out during and around Tiananmen Square.

"Climate change" politics itself is a fascist creation. Climates have always changed.

Pollution is catastrophic, or will become so. But this does not necessarily correlate to temperature change.

But "climate change" doctrine, just like terrorism, is a great tool towards people control (otherwise you would not, presumably, had assumed fascism to be some cure).

Indeed. Not nice folk.

Pollution is catastrophic, or will become so. But this does not necessarily correlate to temperature change.

But "climate change" doctrine, just like terrorism, is a great tool towards people control — raza

Ahhhhh.

Now this is an interesting insight into your thought.

'Pollution does not correlate with temperature Change?'

WOW!

Climate change doctrine is: "like terrorism".

Double WOW!

Here in these ideas (plus the usual assertion that technology will save us from itself) we see the true Fascism that is contained behind the veil of the ostensible lovers of freedom and democracy. This is the Facism that is the enemy.

These assertions are Trumpisms!

Perhaps Trump is a Fascist of sorts. We presently enjoy temporary 'improved' international relations, because all the Fascists are presently getting on so well together... at least for the moment.

I contend that the only practical solution to all these Fascists, is a mega-Fascist with a big stick. (I even nominated Posty for the job) But I am open here to LOGICAL alternatives!


Indeed if democracy were to evolve and contain within itself a Fascist response to the subliminal (and arguably fascist) ideals behind Trumpism (racism, climate denial, capitalism etc)
Democracy might survive itself and freedom might be preserved. The cause of this catastrophic failure is (arguably) the failure of Philosophy. Philosophy may have begun to fail when it lost its own Fascist dictator... the guy with the beard who lives in the clouds......., but that's another days work!

M

Trumpism?

I've looked into these matters from years before the current Trump phenomena.

Climate change doctrine is: "like terrorism" — Marcus de Brun

To clarify. "Terrorism" as orchestrated by others other than those accused of it or those that become the patsies.

I think many a Muslim has been utilized as a patsy by someone more of Western origin. But also there are influential Islamic partners of Western banker interests.

But also there are influential Islamic partners of Western banker interests. — raza

This is getting as interesting as it is becoming predictable. 'Influential Islamic partners of Western Bankers'

WOW X3

I should have known that the Muslims were next on the list.

Trumpism has been around long before Trump. To define it properly: Trump (the president) is the manifest democratic exuberance of the worst elements of human thought: greed, materialism, self interest, racism, jingoism etc...

These qualities (the horrible side of mankind) are not unique to Trump they are to a greater or lesser degree the base instinctual, or animal lusts/imperatives of all trousered apes (man). They are the enemy of Philosophy and the enemy of reason and the true enemy of Humanity.

Trumpism therefore is the private de-facto cherishing of Trump like ideals, beneath the surface of an ostensible or professed democratic or freedom morality.

You have declared antifascist stance, and yet you adhere (WOW's 1, 2 & 3) to Fascist ideals, pretty much to the letter:

Climate change denial, and the notion that there are externals, you use the usual Trumpian example of Muslims... who are an 'enemy' by virtue of them being Muslim. (that is kinda gross)

I suggest a bit of introspection to see the enemy/facist within. Not just for you, but all of us. But particularly yourself in the context of the 3 WOWS.

M

I should have known that the Muslims were next on the list. — Marcus de Brun

And

you use the usual Trumpian example of Muslims... who are an 'enemy' by virtue of them being Muslim. (that is kinda gross) — Marcus de Brun

I didn't introduce Islam or Muslim into anything terrorism. Have you forgotten the often referred to bogeyman "Isis"?

In fact I defend Muslims against an automatic characterization of them as organizers of terrorist plots.

I think that maybe you responded during a hyperventilation episode due to particular words which triggered context confusion.

I don't blame you. It is merely a condition you may one day overcome.

Apologies Raza

But the climate change denial, and the Muslim stuff, and the tchnology will save us stuff.. all of it certainly does trigger a hyperventialtion of sorts. I am getting used to it as it is more common now since the election in 2016.

Hopefully it might one day trigger a little bit of anti-fascist introspection. However, I suspect the only thing that will accomplish that, is the old devil of 'consequence'. Most rhetoric (thanks to freedom) is apparently immune to consequence.

M

and the tchnology will save us stuff. — Marcus de Brun

That wasn't me.

And I don't deny changes in climate.

Pollution is catastrophic, or will become so. But this does not necessarily correlate to temperature change. — raza

?