What is Trump’s true motivation? — Number2018

Self-interest.

"People want their countries back" - what do people want?
We can take an example of Brexit - now it is almost impossible to say what is Brexit about!
It was clear for a short while, but today, when the slogan went through mass media, numerous burocracies, unprincipled politicians it is absolutely not clear. So analyses of present situation requires a new type of rationality.

It is not clear if Trump's ambitions are limited by some rational frames. Indeed, sometimes it looks like he believes in a kind of Napoleonic mission.

I think it is impossible to apply the concept of fascism ( understood as existing for long period of time regime like real Hitler's one or imaginary Orwell's ) to present situation. What is actual - the escalation of extremely emotional
political short term strategies ( which can be called fascistic), causing the explosion of fragile and complex equilibrium of modern American society.
In the last tweets Trump states that media can cause war, and he uses the jargon of"The enemies of the People" - quite Stalinist terminology!
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-08-05/fake-news-can-cause-war-trump-blasts-he-defends-trade-war-china

now it is almost impossible to say what is Brexit about — Number2018

No that's just obfuscatory media propaganda. It was always pretty clear in the Brexit materials, in debates, interviews and written stuff, and it's still absolutely crystal clear: the Leave vote was about national sovereignty and our wish to extricate ourselves from the EU superstate experiment; immigration and all the other issues are subsets of that fundamental point.

Just as many other oldsters who voted Leave, I'm someone who remembers the lies and bs we were fed when we got ourselves into the mess back in the 70s and 80s. Even when I was on the Left I was on the anti-EU Left, along with Tony Benn and many others in the Labour Party at the time.

The power of our weakness for pleasure is much more controllable than humanity's weakness for fear, instilled by the same authoritarians in Orwell's 1984. — yatagarasu

Well, it's always carrot AND stick isn't it? :)

I do not doubt that you are able perfectly articulate what ( was) and is Brexit about!
But what is your government position? It is opened to endless interpretations!
By the way, what is the opinion of ordinary, simple people who voted for Brexit? What would they say today?

But what is your government position? It is opened to endless interpretations! — Number2018

Oh yeah, well of course the Tories didn't expect the Brexit result, and a substantial proportion of them are pro-EU for obvious snout-in-trough reasons. The PM has been in the invidious position of trying to implement something she doesn't believe in. Whether Brexit will be carried out in any serious way remains open to doubt - it's quite possible that we might end up with the worst of all possible results, i.e. still being subject to EU rule, but without even the minimal kind of representation we formerly had as a member. However it's also possible that (because the Tory rank and file is slightly more inclined towards Leave on the whole) more hardline Brexiteers take the lead. It's even possible that with all the confusion and faffing about, we get a no-deal default exit, which would actually be quite a good result.

I think "ordinary simple people" view it the way I've said: except they couch it more in terms of a visceral sense of, "We don't want to be ruled by Brussels" and "this insane level of mass immigration has to stop."

Basically, your answer is verifying what I said before. We do not agree
just because the word " Brexit" has two possible meanings: 1) Brexit as idea 2) Brexit as a real complicated situation after the referendum, today. Similarly, we can talk about Communism as idea
and Communism as real society - they are absolutely different.

it's still absolutely crystal clear: the Leave vote was about national sovereignty and our wish to extricate ourselves from the EU superstate experiment; immigration and all the other issues are subsets of that fundamental point. — gurugeorge

I don't think people voted for or against a European super-state. On the whole, they voted for the return of the British Empire, and to expel all those whose skin is a different colour from their own. Shameful. I am ashamed, anyway. :cry:

On the whole, they voted for the return of the British Empire, and to expel all those whose skin is a different colour from their own. — Pattern-chaser

This is a distortion of reality and it sounds like it's based on prejudice against Leave voters. The vote was for independence of the EU and control of UK borders.

Similarly, we can talk about Communism as idea
and Communism as real society - they are absolutely different. — Number2018

They're not "absolutely different"- obviously they're related, just as the idea of Brexit is related to Brexit as a process.

" They voted for the return of the British Empire". This is the very important point, that I tried to develop. There is nothing wrong in the slogan :" We want our country back!" Yet, under certain conditions, the slogan loses its significance and gains absolutely different and even perverse meanings.
It can illustrate the transformation of desire and motivation of all sides that were using this slogan somehow.
I do not like to use the word fascistic desire as having too many negative connotations, but obviously we
find here a deep transformation of the initial desire.

That's a false dilemma, since it could be both or neither. It's also a poor analogy, since the word "divisive" is not typically used in that kind of scenario, involving just two people. It is much more applicable in relation to Trump, or, to use an example taken from a dictionary, the Vietnam war — Sapientia

Well. That’s an opinion that my analogy isn’t appropriate. I disagree.

I suggest it isn’t an appropriate analogy for you merely because it would be inconveniant to acknowledge as such.

Opinions, opinions, opinions. I have no problem that there are different opinions.

"The idea of Brexit is related to Brexit as process" You are right. So, there are idea, and a reality as process, but there is also a slogan between them. And slogan can transform them, but also it is transformed itself. For example,
" Make America great again!" is absolutely multitasking slogan.

There is a natural localisation of identity - people like us live in places like here. There is a natural loyalty in such identity, to the colours of the local football team, to the bounds of the parish. But trade has always crossed borders, and trade deals always involve concessions to the bloody foreigners. So we escape from the mythical rules of the straightness of bananas, only to have to submit to the chlorination of chickens.

Sovereignty and trade are incompatible, and trade will win in the end. So exit from Europe will not merely allow, but necessitate entrance to trade deals that it is not at all clear will be more favourable or free. But we have been presented with - and we have tended to see, the free movement of the bloody foreigners to here, whereas we do not notice all the folks from here that freely go there. Just as we notice all the irksome rules that they make, and do not notice the liberalising benefits. Folks living in the decaying industrial North of England, see the decay, and see the foreigners, and think the latter is the cause of the former, rather than the effect. The real causes are beyond their event horizon.

But all this is being exaggerated and exploited to the extent that reasonable debate on the merits of one policy v the other is no longer possible.

For an inkling of how this is done in a different context, take a look at how the Zionist movement is controlling the agenda in the UK (and elsewhere). That link (to a 4 part documentary) is clearly partisan, but not so partisan that it should not be heard and discussed alongside that which it opposes. But it gets no voice in the mainstream, and this means that 'we' are no longer free to make up our own minds, but are subject to a particular distortion of our natural identifications. Democracy cannot function without approximately balanced media, because our event horizons are always too close for us to discern our own best interests at an international level, we are at the mercy of the media.

"How the Zionist movement is controlling the agenda in the UK ( and elsewhere)." Are you serious about this statement? It is an absolute conspirological statement - similarly, it is possible to fabricate whatever you wish about everything. Russia's meddling into last American election - there was some meddling, no doubt about this - but when this fact is taken by mass media and becomes a dominating and excluding all different points of view discourse, it indeed becomes a fascistic one. By the way, getting back to the beginning of this thread about fascism- these are very good examples of how some particular motivations, equipped by seemingly rational discourse, can became the embodiment of fascistic desire.

Are you serious about this statement? — Number2018

Yes. It is multiply confirmed by a staff member of the Israeli embassy in the documentary I linked. In the second part he attends and is active at the Labour party conference.

"Zionist movement is controlling the agenda in the UK ( and elsewhere)." This is pure Antisemitism = Fascism.

So are you implying, when calling my analogy a “false dilemma”, that those who rioted as a reaction to the Trump election victory were not actually vandals but merely justified, because it was Trump, in smashing up their own neighborhood - that is was not because their preferred candidate did not win?

I presume you are aware that people vote based on which candidate they agree with the most, hence my analogy, which I repeat, below:

……………………………………………………………………………………………

>>>He: Those riots show how divisive he is.

Me: So as you and I have a different political opinion and after this conversation you leave feeling pissed off with me about that, on your way down my street you break the windows of a nearby shop and some neighbors houses.

Is you doing those acts a consequence of me “being divisive” or just you being a vandal?<<<

This is pure Antisemitism = Fascism. — Number2018

No it isn't. It is anti-Zionism if you like, but not even that; it is a claim with evidence that the Israeli government is doing it's best to undermine Jeremy Corbyn because of his long time support for Palestinians. And an objection to that interference.

And here's some more evidence>

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/blog/8395/

Well, it's always carrot AND stick isn't it? :) — gurugeorge

:cool: haha So true! :up: