But, disidentification is not similar to what you are describing. — Posty McPostface

Ok, I agree that I may not be clear on what you mean by the term disidentification. Clarify if you wish.

So, how do you overcome this process of the mind that tells the depressive that they cannot address their depression? — Posty McPostface

Let's examine your question in fragments...

"you"
"overcome"
"the mind"
"the depressive"
"their depression"

Each of these items you've referred to is made of thought. Without thought, none of them can exist.

Psychology would have us analyze these thought products and try to understand them. If that process works, great, I'm all for anything that works.

If analysis doesn't work I'm suggesting an alternative way to look at the problem, as a purely mechanical issue. If I pull the power plug to my TV all the bad shows go away. Simple. Mechanical.

Likewise, if I'm racing down a wave and my brain is too busy doing geometry and physics to engage in thinking, all the "bad show" stories about my life go away. They go away not because the bad shows have been analyzed and understood, but because the medium the bad shows are made of has been temporarily turned off, thus making their existence impossible.

This is obviously not a permanent cure to depression because we have to think to survive. However, if one learns how to manage the volume of thought then one doesn't need to fear depression as much. If the shows on our TV get bad enough, we have a plan of what to do.

The volume of thought can be managed through simple mechanical exercises. It's like working to get a flat stomach, we don't really need to understand anything, we just need to patiently do the situps.

Philosophers tend to hate such solutions because they aren't sophisticated, complex, something to chew on, analyze, understand etc. All I'm saying is that if that analytical process doesn't work for someone, they may wish to explore simpler more mechanical alternatives.

As example, sometimes when my brain gets overheated (Death to whoever invented the Internuts!!!) I take an over the counter herb called Kava. It's like a muscle relaxer, it shows everything down, including my mind. It doesn't solve my problems, it just helps me chew on them with less enthusiasm. Obviously, this is a purely mechanical temporary solution. Not a cure, but superior to banging my head on the monitor and yelling at everyone on the Internet.

Finally, please keep in mind that I know these things because being an enthusiastic over thinker myself I've had to learn them.

Fine then, depression is a term laid with ambiguity, at least until it is experienced. — Posty McPostface

"Depression" is a term that can mean different things. Ambiguity lies in usage. MIs-use is - can be - problematic, beyond mere error. I do not doubt that, if you say your'e depressed, you're depressed. But that's not a ticket or a license, it's a condition. To call it "depression" is simply to pass through the main door - you haven't really got anywhere. Now you have to figure out the details, in a sense find out which inner door you have to pass through - and the wrong door is of no use.

Near as I can tell, disidentification is getting out from under being mislabeled, whether by self or others, whether by group or as an individual.

Ok, I agree that I may not be clear on what you mean by the term disidentification. Clarify if you wish. — Jake

Disidentification simply means, as tim wood has provided, freedom from being labeled by oneself or others. What about the process of disidentification? Do you think you could add to that?

The volume of thought can be managed through simple mechanical exercises. It's like working to get a flat stomach, we don't really need to understand anything, we just need to patiently do the situps. — Jake

Yes; but, depression indicated a dysfunction of being able to perform simple tasks. It simply robs us of willpower to be able to do simple tasks. Not in all cases though; but, the majority of cases experience anhedonia and lack of energy and a diminished power of the will.

"Depression" is a term that can mean different things. Ambiguity lies in usage. MIs-use is - can be - problematic, beyond mere error. I do not doubt that, if you say your'e depressed, you're depressed. But that's not a ticket or a license, it's a condition. To call it "depression" is simply to pass through the main door - you haven't really got anywhere. Now you have to figure out the details, in a sense find out which inner door you have to pass through - and the wrong door is of no use. — tim wood

I feel as though it is quite obvious when you experience depression. It's a dysphoric mood of sorts. In the case provided in the OP, the mood has been experienced long enough that it seems normal to the depressive. I don't need to list the list of symptoms; but, they are quite apparent to the depressive in most cases. I do know that psychiatrists often mistake a temporary setback or existential angst or some passing malady for depression. Do you know how to disentangle temporary setbacks, loss of a loved one, and such from plain depression? Is it simply the length of time that one feels depressed that dictates if it is depression indeed?

Near as I can tell, disidentification is getting out from under being mislabeled, whether by self or others, whether by group or as an individual. — tim wood

How does one know one is being mislabeled? Is that a conscious process?

Yes; but, depression indicated a dysfunction of being able to perform simple tasks. It simply robs us of willpower to be able to do simple tasks. Not in all cases though; but, the majority of cases experience anhedonia and lack of energy and a diminished power of the will — Posty McPostface

There are techniques - tricks, if you will - for dealing with this. In short, you just have to do it, whatever it is. Intervention that can get you over the hump is worth considering. And you might consider - or revisit because you likely have considered - issues of anger (including rage). It's axiomatic to me (maybe only me) that depression is inward-directed anger that properly should be outward directed.

So-called clinical depression is a dfferent animal, and for that you need professional animal control.

There are techniques - tricks, if you will - for dealing with this. In short, you just have to do it, whatever it is. Intervention that can get you over the hump is worth considering. And you might consider - or revisit because you likely have considered - issues of anger (including rage). It's axiomatic to me (maybe only me) that depression is inward-directed anger that properly should be outward directed.

So-called clinical depression is a dfferent animal, and for that you need professional animal control. — tim wood

So, you disagree that disidentification is a useful therapy in combating depression? It seems to me that, at least initially it might not be of great use; but, it would be important in the long term not to identify with depression too closely. How does one even begin disidentification with depression if they experience the symptoms constantly? It seems like as long as one identifies with their depression, then they are or will be stuck in a rut. Therefore, something else might be needed to combat the depression, such as the therapy of sorts. I don't believe that willing oneself out of depression is possible at first.

@Jake

So, take this for example:

The inherent nature of mind is to process thought.

To attempt the cessation of thought goes against what is natural.

The goal, therefore, is not the cessation of thought.

The goal is cessation off identification with thought. — Wu Hsin

How do you disidentify with a thought at all?

You say you feel depressed. Far as I know that means you are depressed. How depressed? What kind of depressed? For what cause? Is there a cause? All these (and more) you and I are disqualified from answering. They require professional expertise. As it happens, professionals, here, can disagree, but that really doesn't matter too much, most of the time. Sometimes you need a advocate, more often you don't.

But the answers matter, and to the degree you're afflicted, you're unlikely to break free without them. Example, a friend fell while skating and self-diagnosed a sprained ankle - a very reasonable assessment. Except that it was a mistake - unreasonable - to make the assessment in the first place. It was a broken leg. Apparently that's you. You're trying to be reasonable, except that under present circumstance that is not reasonable, and if it is not reasonable - and I suspect that you know that it is not reasonable - then what is it? We know it ain't reasonable.

My three-cent analysis is that you want to Catch-22 yourself out of something, itself a form of wishful thinking, when in fact you're just Catch-22ing yourself further into it.

Joots is a word coined by Douglas Hofstadter in Godel, Escher, Bach. It means, stands for, "jump out of the system." I've found it at times a powerful idea.

Joots is a word coined by Douglas Hofstadter in Godel, Escher, Bach. It means, stands for, "jump out of the system." I've found it at times a powerful idea. — tim wood

How does one jump out of depression? That's quite impossible, I think. "I jooted myself out of depression." If anyone knows then please let us know!

So, let me reiterate my position.

One has the symptoms of "X", and those symptoms point towards a label or diagnosis, such as X itself.

How does one stop this process or begin disidentification when presented with symptoms of depression (just as an example)? I don't know if that is possible, as it seems like something one does automatically and without forethought.

@unenlightened, what do you have to say about all this, if I may humbly ask?

Interesting responses from all on a very worthwhile (imho) topic.

As Posty above referred to Roberto Assagioli, a psychologist who helped pioneer transpersonal psychology, I think a general nutshell description of the topic might shed some light on a possible meaning of “disidentification”. From Wikipedia:

Transpersonal psychology is a sub-field or "school" of psychology that integrates the spiritual and transcendent aspects of the human experience with the framework of modern psychology. It is also possible to define it as a "spiritual psychology". The transpersonal is defined as "experiences in which the sense of identity or self extends beyond (trans) the individual or personal to encompass wider aspects of humankind, life, psyche or cosmos".[1] It has also been defined as "development beyond conventional, personal or individual levels".

Issues considered in transpersonal psychology include spiritual self-development, self beyond the ego, peak experiences, mystical experiences, systemic trance, spiritual crises, spiritual evolution, religious conversion, altered states of consciousness, spiritual practices, and other sublime and/or unusually expanded experiences of living. The discipline attempts to describe and integrate spiritual experience within modern psychological theory and to formulate new theory to encompass such experience.

Transpersonal psychology has made several contributions to the academic field, and the studies of human development, consciousness and spirituality. Transpersonal psychology has also made contributions to the fields of psychotherapy[5] and psychiatry.

Lajoie and Shapiro[8] reviewed forty definitions of transpersonal psychology that had appeared in academic literature over the period from 1968 to 1991. They found that five key themes in particular featured prominently in these definitions: states of consciousness; higher or ultimate potential; beyond the ego or personal self; transcendence; and the spiritual. Based upon this study the authors proposed the following definition of transpersonal psychology: Transpersonal Psychology is concerned with the study of humanity's highest potential, and with the recognition, understanding, and realization of unitive, spiritual, and transcendent states of consciousness.

In a review of previous definitions Walsh and Vaughan[1] suggested that transpersonal psychology is an area of psychology that focuses on the study of transpersonal experiences and related phenomena. These phenomena include the causes, effects and correlates of transpersonal experiences and development, as well as the disciplines and practices inspired by them. They have also criticised many definitions of transpersonal psychology for carrying implicit assumptions, or presuppositions, that may not necessarily define the field as a whole...


Of course there are different schools of thought, some with major differences, but most participants would probably agree on these basics. I think of the general urge not to completely identify with oneself and one’s thoughts as a very healthy skepticism, and an equally helpful movement away from solipsism.

Also, this post by @Jake from another thread seems to be relevant to the concept of disidentification here.

I agree. Transpersonal psychology seems like an interesting offshoot. But, what about setting limits on disidentification. It seems to me that there are no limits on this idea, and it falls on itself. If I reach the logical end of disidentification, which would be not identifying with myself, then what's left to do?

Yes, it's built into us to identify with things and such matters; but, again I reference my previous post, about the limitlessness of disidentification. Does it just continue forever?

The above depressive sentiment is due to identifying with my depression too closely. Now, I don't know how to (dis)-identify with depression anymore, it's been with me for so long, that I've become accustomed to it. — Posty McPostface

I wonder what you mean by dis-identify? There is some complexity here I think, because usually folks don't identify as depressed the way they identify as British, or a philosopher, or male. Rather, one tends to have depression - a black dog that moves in and won't go away. And this is already by way of dis-identification - one does not, by contrast, often say one has got happiness, but that one is happy.

Depression in your first paragraph is something you deal with, that goes away or doesn't, that you battle; it is not by these expressions 'you', but 'other'. This othering one might say is identification by negation - "I am" ... "not-depression", equates to "I have depression", or even "Depression has me". And in such case, dis-identifying with othered depression looks rather like identifying with depression.

That's already complex enough, but there can also be another form of negation, that denies the whole thing, as self or other. One might say that sometimes I am happy, and sometimes I am miserable, and it is not a thing I have, or a thing I am, but just a flow of existence. Perhaps that is what you mean by dis-identification?

True, one would want to be prudent and logical while attempting to disindentify. Like someone said above, turning down the volume can help. I do my best not to believe every thought that occurs to me simply because it’s “MINE”. The thought may or may not be true, helpful, intelligent, etc. This feels freeing and a relief rather than limiting. It feels like being on the long road back from being wrapped up in myself. Another step every day. It is nice to not be the center of the universe. That is too much pressure. As the Buddhists say, you are not your body-mind. Or (if I may add) not exclusively.

Also, any phrase that begins “I am...” is extremely powerful, as you probably know. And as you have read in psychology books, wording things without saying “I am..” can help. If I am forced to identify with anything, I’d say that I am someone, I am no-thing, I am part of everything. All other identities are founded on that.

That's already complex enough, but there can also be another form of negation, that denies the whole thing, as self or other. One might say that sometimes I am happy, and sometimes I am miserable, and it is not a thing I have, or a thing I am, but just a flow of existence. Perhaps that is what you mean by dis-identification? — unenlightened

I was thinking more along the lines or associating a state of mind with being itself. This is manifest in terms such as "I am...", non-temporally.

I wonder what you mean by dis-identify? — unenlightened

What I mean to say is that we have identifications that we abide by, as you've already mentioned of being male, British or what have you, and being sad or depressed. Going back to the OP, one learns to cope with XYZ (depression as an example). Dis-identification abolishes the need for coping with some thing and instead allows one to live as a set of symptoms instead of a label.

This othering one might say is identification by negation - "I am" ... "not-depression", equates to "I have depression", or even "Depression has me". And in such case, dis-identifying with othered depression looks rather like identifying with depression. — unenlightened

This is interesting. So, how can you disidentify, at all, with depression? The otherness of depression eventually leads one to anti-depression; but, that is not fruitful in my opinion. Disidentification is, however.

When one goes to the doctor, they talk about symptoms and different feelings, culminating in the label or identifying oneself with depression.

In other words, how does one draw the exclusion between the two statements about being depressed and having depression?

True, one would want to be prudent and logical while attempting to disindentify. Like someone said above, turning down the volume can help. — 0 thru 9

I'm not sure you can turn down the volume on 'depression', it's a lingering feeling that doesn't just go away. It's a persistent and deep mood so to speak.

I'm not sure you can turn down the volume on 'depression', it's a lingering feeling that doesn't just go away. It's a persistent and deep mood so to speak. — Posty McPostface

Sorry, i was mixing metaphors and quotes. Always a tricky thing. What I was trying to say was something like turning the volume down on self-identity. Not completely off, because that might be like some strange drug trip where one doesn’t know where they end and the floors and rest of the world begins. Difficult to even make a cup of coffee like that. :yum:

Hi Posty,

I"m going to come at it maybe from a slightly different direction, maybe it speaks to what you are pointing at, maybe not…

So we have ideas about who we should be, based on social norms, temperament, position in a social context etc...Then we can compare those ideas with how we percieve ourselves to actually behave, and evaluate ouselves based on that.

In case of depression, we might have the idea that we should be happy (based on social norms that we have internalised etc), but we are feeling depressed so we think we aren't really living up to that standard, which creates another layer of mental anguish.

So one feels bad because of depression, and on top of that you feel extra bad because being/feeling depressed is not what you should be/feel.

So what I take your 'identification with depression' to be in this context is the adjustment of the ideal self to be more in line with the actual self. There is adjustment of goals, expectations etc so to avoid feeling extra bad about not meeting the standards of an unadjusted ideal self. This might be a good strategy in the beginning, and indeed even necessary to not make things worse... it may even be an overall good thing because social standards are at times absurd (nobody is happy all the time). But if I understand what you are saying, it may also be the cause of staying more depressed because that's what you come to expect (identify with).

I'm not sure what the solution is here, because it would seem to disidentify you would need to build up an ideal self again that doesn't take depression into account, but then that runs the risk of backfiring if you happen to feel depressed again…

Maybe the solution is to not evaluate yourself on the happiness axis alltogheter. It doesn't seem like a goal that we have all that much controle over anyway… and more of a byproduct of other things most of the time. The whole 'wisdom is changing what you can't accept, accepting what you can't change and knowing the difference'-thing. I do believe that some things just go away if you focus on other things…. and not by trying to not focus on a thing, attention doesn't seem to work that way.

Another thing that might help is the more general realisation that thoughts and identification are allways only mere abstractions. And abstractions are necessarily crude simplifications of what's really going on, and never the whole story... sort of a deflationary approach to though in general, so you don't take it so seriously anymore, either way. That's why they sometimes call it the chattering monkey in eastern philosophy, to reduce the importance it is typically given.

Another thing that might help is the more general realisation that thoughts and identification are allways only mere abstractions. And abstractions are necessarily crude simplifications of what's really going on, and never the whole story... sort of a deflationary approach to though in general, so you don't take it so seriously anymore, either way. That's why they sometimes call it the chattering monkey in eastern philosophy, to reduce the importance it is typically given. — ChatteringMonkey

Well said and I would agree. If you left out one little thing, it might be this: :monkey: (darn... no “speak no evil” emoji!)

Thanks for the response.

But if I understand what you are saying, it may also be the cause of staying more depressed because that's what you come to expect (identify with). — ChatteringMonkey

Yes, that's what I was pointing out.

I'm not sure what the solution is here, because it would seem to disidentify you would need to build up an ideal self again that doesn't take depression into account, but then that runs the risk of backfiring if you happen to feel depressed again… — ChatteringMonkey

Yes, well, the point would be not to identify with a label and simply accept the symptoms of depression in this case. Is that possible?

Another thing that might help is the more general realisation that thoughts and identification are allways only mere abstractions. And abstractions are necessarily crude simplifications of what's really going on, and never the whole story... sort of a deflationary approach to though in general, so you don't take it so seriously anymore, either way. That's why they sometimes call it the chattering monkey in eastern philosophy, to reduce the importance it is typically given. — ChatteringMonkey

Interesting. So, identification is a crude simplification. Seems true. What do you mean by the chattering monkey analogy?

It's interesting because, in CBT, there's even an attempt at disidentification, at least not overtly. It's mainly to stop labeling oneself with various labels instead.

But, disidentification seems better suited to deal with other issues than mental health-related problems in my mind. I think it's best utilized to stop negative labeling, as per CBT, of various names or stereotypes. I think, that disidentification is too much to ask for in terms of trying to absolve oneself from depression, anxiety, or other maladies.

Yes, well, the point would be not to identify with a label and simply accept the symptoms of depression in this case. Is that possible? — Posty

Yes i think it is... a label is only a overarching designation given to a set of certain symptoms in this case. It is a further abstraction from the symptoms, by which i mean that the symptoms are a more detailed and closer description of reality anyway. Naming and labelling, it's only a convenience thing really… not allways an absolute necessity i don't think.

But isn't it more the negative connotations attached to the label that are the problem. I mean a label or name is just that, a name given to a set of things. Without (societal mostly) evaluations attached to it, it's just neutral value. Maybe it's more those negative connotation that need to be dissolved.

Interesting. So, identification is a crude simplification. Seems true. What do you mean by the chattering monkey analogy? — Posty

Well a monkey screetches and runs arround exited a lot of the time, making a lot of noise... it's something not to be taken to seriously. The idea is that the thoughts, the internal dialogue etc are like a chattering monkey.

It's interesting because, in CBT, there's even an attempt at disidentification, at least not overtly. It's mainly to stop labeling oneself with various labels instead. — Posty

Yeah I think the idea here is that you need to let go of the negative valuations attached to labels, the social stigma etc. That's the second layer i was talking about, the guilt and shame of being depressed, on top of feeling depressed.

Yeah, it's a futile concept in my opinion to address internal problems of the mind such as depression and other maladies. You don't negate depression by not identifying with it, I think.

Another interesting point would be the Cartesian claim that I think therefore I am. One out not identify with thought to exist in general.

Depression is part of who and what you are. If you're not depressed then you are blind or numb to reality... and trying to get rid of ones depression is like asking to become blind. I love my depression, it makes me hate the world and reminds me that the greater portion of humanity is deserving of little more than disgust and pity. As a consequence of this depressive view, the opposites; nature, animals, philosophy, art, litterature, food, old cars, whiskey, old buildings, culture mythology, my bicycle, and the rare encounter with an intelligent thinking human... fill me with consummate delight, a happiness and joy that makes the depression entirely worthwhile.

When you feel down, have a wank, look out the window, get drunk, make muffins, go for a walk, fuck the world.. it is only ugly wherever there are people and there should be no one else inside your soul (whatever that is when its at home).

M

Yeah, it's a futile concept in my opinion to address internal problems of the mind such as depression and other maladies. You don't negate depression by not identifying with it, I think. — Posty

You don't cure the depression itself maybe, but i think you can stop the feelings of guilt and shame assoiciated with labels that maybe prevent you from even starting to cure the depression itself.