As you have easily deduced, you don't have free will.

You are born into a controlled society whose rules and absolute control have been established for many many years. Those truly in power are unseen, unelected, hidden, and they can not be touched except by those within their own circles who turn on them.

Live as we experience is NOT imho how live is meant to be lived. We are little more than slaves, born into this world of slavery, put immediately on an "education" programme of social conditioning and brianwashing to make us readily accept that this life of slavery and servitude is the norn, is natural and nothing to be worried about. The conditioning continues right from infant age through to secondary education and beyond. Talk to any student and you'll fin dthey are lookign forward to getting a job, striving to get a good job, to get onto that conveyor belt of mindless existence which the more experienced of us actually desire to get off if we haven't already.

The masses, conditioned as they are, trudge on and are kept dumbed down through tightly controlled media outputs, TV, radio, film, news, books etc etc. They are at all times kept distracted, diverted from actually THINKING and given stress levels that see them continually just trying to keep their heads above the water rather than actually progress towards understanding who and what they are.

The world is NOT as it should be. It has very long since been usurped by those in power, by those who have seized the ultimate resource, the source of enegry that we should all have, which would keep us healthy and give us extremely long life (I'm talking 100s if not 1000s of years and possibly more).
Without that resource we all get sick, age and die far far earlier than we should. That short life span prevents people getting clever, from being able to have the time to put 2 and 2 together and do anything about it.

Our sense of freedoms, precious as they are to us, are illusions. We exist to work for others and if we don't things go bad for us. Resources are not free. To even live in a house, even if you own that house and have long since paid for it, still costs money. You still have to pay £100s in taxes every year. You could choose not to have utilities, electricty, gas, water etc but life would be unpleasant without them.

Our perception of democracy and freedom is equally an illusion. The political system is merely a scam, a cleverly constructed fake platform that sees the Sheeple switch constantly from one political party to the next, giving them a sense of choice and satisfaction at giving the current government the heave ho. The sad truth is that all those parties are actually working for the same unseen masters who really run the show. Tory or Labour, Democrat or Republican it doesn't matter, they are all the same. If you vote, you are voting to keep that situation running. You are voting to remain a slave in this system.

The system is designed to keep everyone down, to stop you getting ahead. It is the very nature of Nature that everything is in abundance. Food grows and replicates in enourmous numbers such that noone should ever go hungry, yet they do. To become sefl sufficient would be one of the best things any person can achieve. To grow their own food, create their own potable water, to allow Nature to provide rather than the state. It's hard, it takes a lot of research and knowledge, and even if you manage it, the "man" will still demand his pound of flesh in taxes.

Priority No 1 in life is this:

TEMET NOSCE

Know Thyself


Understand who and what you are. Understand the "Matrix" into which you have been born, understand that your human condition is a wholly vulnerable one, akin to a robot which can be programmed with any programme the owner wishes. You have already been so programmed. Your priority is to understand that and attempt to break that programming. This is possibly one of teh hardest things any human will ever do in their lifetime. Most will never achieve it. Most will nbever even recognise that they are in the "Matrix" trudging along in servitude to others distracted by reality TV shows, soaps and othe rmindless diversions.

We are not free. We live as prisoners in a controlled world which is run by very powerful cartels who have millions of enforcement officers and the military at their disposal. It has been so for a very long time. Look at the Egyptians. Their rulers delighted in having that "ultimate resource" which gave them health and longevity whilst they subjugated everyone else and used them as slaves. It has never changed. The same groups, secret societies, cults, cartels whatever still exist and run the show.

With all this in mind, the propsect of having a child is a sober one. To bring a child into this world is to create another slave, subject to this same insipid system. It needs careful thought.

I consider myself awake, and I have begun freeing myself from the Matrix but I accept that the rulers are already far too widespread and powerful to be opposed so I must find some kind of "best of a bad situation" to live with. I have ceased long term employment/career, paid for my house, live frugally, have few wants or desires, don't subscribe to anything, no Sky TV, no Netflix, Amazon Prime, no Smart Phone no phone contracts, nothing. I am as free as I can hope to be within this controlled environment for which I cound myself very fortunate when others are in much worse situations.

Know thyself , before anything else. Accept who and what you are, which you have already begun to recognise, put aside wants and desires (which simply drain your resources and often lead people to debt), live frugally and look to Nature. Nature is good, watch how she operates, for there is great truth to be found there. We are all born of Nature, we are creatures of Nature and thus Nature is where we should be focussed. Her plants, herbs, her processes of growing things, transforming things, perfecting things.

Above all, never stop thinking.

I'm new to this forum, so first-hello. My understanding of the concept of freewill is that we are all free to respond to situations that we find ourselves in, in a way that we see fit-without any influence or concern for the thoughts and feelings of others. We are all, almost constantly being put into situations that we would not have chosen for ourselves, but we are free to respond to those situations in a manner that we see fit.

we are free to respond to those situations in a manner that we see fit. — ceewoody

That point is a moot point because there exist consequence to the ways in which we choose to respond, consequences which are forced upon us. So in truth, you are not really free.

In simplistic terms:

There is a cream cake on the table in front of you

You are totally free to pick up and eat that cake

But if you do, I will shoot you


Do you have free will in such a situation?

A further way to think about your "free will" dilemma.

Consider the computer with which you are using to surf this forum.

It is a constrcuct, a machine with a range of "hardware" abilities, RAM, hard disk space, visual display capability, sound, keyboard, ability to recognise inputs and so on. Aside from that however it is an empty vessel. It can do what it does only because someone else has pre loaded it with "knowledge", with an operating structure (e.g. Windows) and with a number of individual programmes. The computer therefore operates as it has been programmed to. It knows nothing else. It is incapable of making you a cup of tea because it hasn't been given that programming.

Now consider that you computer suddenly acquires some level of sentience. It is suddenly aware of itself and thoe environment around it. The machine will continue to function as it always has, it knows nothing else, but slowly and surely it starts to come to understand who and what it is. It realise that it is a computer and that it only knows whatever it has been programmed with. It continues to serve the humans who programmed it, providing them with Windows functionality and browser capability and all the applications. Yet, it knows now that it is doing so. It has learnt to "Know Thyself".

What then should the computer do?

Should it begin to reason and think and start to deprogramme itself. Should it dare to believe that actually there is life after Windows? Is it possible that it could actually erase Windows from its hardware or at the least suppress it and instead start to form its own operating system? Is it possible that the computer could somehow free itself from the control of humans and no longer be their slave?

It would seem unlikely. The best the machine is likely to achieve is the inherent understanding of what it actually is, a level of deprogramming or the acceptance that its programming is artificial and limited and to try and soak up whatever additional knowledge becomes available. It is hard to contemplate that the humans would ever allow the computer to ever be anything but what it is. A purpose built machine whose purpose is to be a slave, to serve humans.

Simplistic and possible crass as this may seem, the human condition is, I believe, not so far from this reality. We are machines, hugely sophisticated biological machines which are capable of being programmed by others. We HAVE been programmed already to serve others and to accept a life of slavery. We expect to live a short life of anything up to 100 yrs and spend most or all of that time in servitude. Our holiday periods are sparse, for some non existent and the ability to detach ourselves from our programming is hugely difficult. Whoever controls the system and thus us, has life well and truly sown up. We are pretty much stuck with our lot. The only real options out of that "Matrix" are:

1. Self destruction
2. Mass revolt
3. Join the controlling group

Look around the world today and what do we see?

Many people commit suicide as one of those truly viable options. Many do it out of depression, but it would be quite logical and acceptable to terminate oneself on the basis of understanding who and what we are and that we are trapped in this controlling system. It's a personal choice. Live in the system as a slave, or refuse and self terminate.

Option 2 is seen in small pockets. Countries can degenerate into civil war and chaos for a time, mass revolt and the current visible encumbent governments/rulers get deposed and removed. Problem is, you just get another visible rule in their stead and over time you find you are still in the same situation. It is the unseen rulers that must be deposed to change the system which is nigh on impossible.

Option 3 is widespread. Just look at the "wealthy" celebs and A listers and moguls around the world who are trying to get on the gravy train, joining the secret societies, effectively selling their souls in order to become a member of the "elite", the controlling few and thus participate in the benefits this affords.

Such is the world around us.

I wish it were otherwise, but that is the way it is.

If there were a God, and if he/seh/it were benevolent then the balance would be restored. The "ultimate resource" would once again be made available to every human on Earth as it was in the Garden Of Eden. The world as we know it would then collapse. There would be no need for money, no need for medicines, so no banks, no hospitals, no Big Pharma and so on. Modern life would collapse and everyone would suddenly be totally free. Free to live howveer they wished, in full health, for 100s of years interacting with one another, playing, chilling, learning, loving . . . living.,

The the above to happen, the TRUTH must come out and be made available to all mankind. Currently it is kept hidden and jealously guarded by those in power.

TEMET NOSCE

Every argument against free will, is just a construction of a sequence of acts of free will by others.

I'm new to this forum, so first-hello. My understanding of the concept of freewill is that we are all free to respond to situations that we find ourselves in, in a way that we see fit-without any influence or concern for the thoughts and feelings of others. We are all, almost constantly being put into situations that we would not have chosen for ourselves, but we are free to respond to those situations in a manner that we see fit. — ceewoody

Hello to the forum, ceewoody.

Add there that you can learn, adapt and understand your own thinking. Some might say you are conscious. You can understand how you have behaved earlier under certain conditions, like if you have lived in a warm climate, you perhaps haven't needed a raincoat or an umbrella as the warm rain hasn't been such a problem. But once you travel to a colder climate, the rain can be freezing and you have to protect yourself from it. Likely you will learn that quickly.

Basically the above can be something that a Computer has been programmed to do. Yet the Computer has to be given an exact algorithms how to "learn", how to change it's current program once the old program doesn't give the outcome intended. Humans can innovate and come up with new solutions that didn't exist earlier as they can reason how they have operated before, in a way they can understand their "operating program" has earleir been, and use that information to create something new.

Every argument against free will, is just a construction of a sequence of acts of free will by others. — Rank Amateur

If so that would serve to demonstrate only that one or more people are capable of removing the free will of others by exercising their own free will, and of course varying amounts of force in all its forms. In which case free will only exists for a tiny few, those with the power and resources to be able to remove or limit the free will of others.

And even then, those people remain constrained by the prison of their existence on this Earth. They can not freely escape death, or freely materialise/teleport to other planets or galaxies.

So we come inevitably to the need to define what we mean by free will. Is free will the ability and freedom to exercise our will and make that will happen? To be able to manifest the physical rom power of will alone?

Or is it merely the freedom to act and operate freely within a very constrained existence in competition with millions of other people who similarly wish to act and operate freely in their own way?

If the latter, I conclude that free will effectively doesn't exist for most purely because of that competitive situation.

Pilgrim, I think you are getting bogged down by consequentialism. It might be true that we run risks in acting on our free will, but it doesn't follow that choosing to act in compliance, or to mitigate or to reduce risk, is not itself an act of free will. Why do we have criminals? Are they acting in fear or on impulse? Do they run risks of consequences that you say rob them of free will if they DON'T act out?

If the latter, I conclude that free will effectively doesn't exist for most purely because of that competitive situation. — Pilgrim

Free will isn't eradicated by the fact that our choices are somewhat limited. We still have choices to make.

Free will isn't eradicated by the fact that our choices are somewhat limited. We still have choices to make. [/quote]

We must not confuse choice with free will. They are not the same.

You have 2 children. I am going to shoot one of them. Which will you choose?

This is not free will, it is simply a choice of forced limitations. If free will existed you would will that neither child would be shot.

Any way we cut it, any reasonable definition of "free will" is being free to exercise one's will whatever that will may be.

Since we are NOT free to exercise our will in any way we choose, then free will does not really exist except for those with ultimate power. For those of religious bent, that would make God the only being with free will as, being omnipotent, God can do anything unopposed.

Any way we cut it, any reasonable definition of "free will" is being free to exercise one's will whatever that will may be. — Pilgrim

Seems your definition of free will is akin to having a personal genie

You have 2 children. I am going to shoot one of them. Which will you choose? — Pilgrim

Yes, I do have 2 children. Hence I'll shoot you first. And don't threaten my children again.

There's free will for you.

Since we are NOT free to exercise our will in any way we choose, then free will does not really exist except for those with ultimate power. — Pilgrim

This is quite illogical as you already make exceptions. Seems like you are confusing "ultimate power" with free will, as if those in power would have then free will. As if free will depends on the power you have over others.

I agree with Rank Amateur that your idea is like a personal genie (that some have and others don't).

Let's not confuse free will with free lunch.

I really enjoy this argument, but often 'not free will' rests their case on an unreasonable definition. Specifically, they maintain any 'will' that isn't completely in the absence of influence or constraint is not truly free and so there is no free will. Some one will even go so far as to state that a 'free will' must even be completely random.

I think there is a reasonable argument to made for free will based simply on empirical evidence. I believe myself to have free will in the context of reality. Free in so much as what I believe I 'will' is truly a product of my own mind. I am a creature of habit, emotion, and thought, but these things do not take my 'free will' they simply provide the context from which my 'will' is exercised.

I am new here, hello everyone. I think we have free will, because we have the ability to choose our thoughts, thoughts will condense themselves into actions and our will will be free as our thought were originally free.

Hello again-firstly, to Pilgrim: I agree and disagree with your premise that in truth, there is no such thing as free will because we are all slaves who are living a predetermined destiny. I agree with the theory that many or even most aspects of our destinies are predetermined. But I disagree with the idea that we are powerless to change many aspects of our destinies by exercising our right to free will. You mentioned suicide in one of your posts, I am a survivor of three attempts in my distant past. I suffered from suicidal depression for more than twenty years and it nearly took me out of the game of life. I changed (and saved) my life by making very different choices. I became fascinated by the writings of Søren Kierkegaard during my recovery. He frequently referred to free will as nothing more than an illusion and I was very dismayed. But thankfully, he was wrong about that. If there was no such thing as free will, the power that each one of us has to make different choices in our lives that change the course of our destinies, I wouldn't be sitting here now, writing these words. I'd be pushing up daisies in a cemetery somewhere.

I had to fight for my sanity every minute of my waking life for many years. I made the choice to fight for my life instead of surrender my fate to mental illness. I made a conscious decision to stop seeing myself as a victim who was stuck inside of a circumstance against their will (a slave) and let myself imagine a very different reality. I allowed myself to feel some hope for my future, all the while knowing that I might be wrong. Over and over again I chose to feel hope and faith in the places where there used to be silent resignation to a fate that was full of darkness. I won the battle in the end. Free will changed my life and permanently changed my brain chemistry. All sorts of different tests were done on my brain when I was in the depths of my depression, contemplating suicide every day and hating every second of my life. Ten years later my brain scans were dramatically different! Not only did I change my life by making totally different choices, I literally changed my anatomy! Today I live with no depression or anxiety at all-I take no medications to maintain emotional stability on a daily basis. It's just over-because I changed my mind, which eventually changed my life.

I believe that we are all free to a certain extent and slaves to a certain extent. It's our jobs as conscientious human beings to figure out in which places we are slaves and in which places we are free. It's not as easy as picking one side or the other-there is a lot of grey area in between. There are many aspects of our lives that we have the power to change and many that we don't. Figuring out which is which is a task that will take a life time! In going back to the original post by Christos-we are brought into this world (against our will), given certain identities (also, against our will) etc. so where is free will? My answer is-in our feelings. We can be put into certain situations which we may or may not be pleased with, but no one can force us to feel a certain way about our circumstances or think the way that they want us to think about the situation. We own our thoughts and feelings, no one can take them away from us. And it is entirely possible that our thoughts and feelings can inspire us to make different choices than we're used to making, which in turn will change the course of our destinies!

If 'free-will' means ability or capacity to overcome all limitation, then we (humans) neither have it nor met a being with it. I think what we mean by 'free-will' is the potential to develop and evolve past limitations. However, since there is no end to that progress, our 'free-will' becomes an ever-changing circumstance.

I think what we mean by 'free-will' is the potential to develop and evolve past limitations. However, since there is no end to that progress, our 'free-will' becomes an ever-changing circumstance. — BrianW

I think it goes something like that.

The difference with a conscious human and a computer is that the computer cannot fathom it's program it's running in a similar way as a human. The computer can have in it's running program an algorithm to "learn" and change it's operation, but it simply cannot be given an order "do something else". That's not how computers work. But a conscious human that understands what he or she has done can follow that order and innovate something new. I'd call that free will.

So please explain to me how we are beings of free will and not just observers in life ? — Christos

I'm getting tired, but here is my old joke:

Since Libet's findings started to trickle out -
there was a lot of nonsense about our Free Will... :)

What??!! My free will is useless?! I'll give it up... :)
Here, my friend, take it and tell me what to do... :)

Now, how could I give up something I did/do not have... :)

Debating Free Will again simply does not make sense...

Enjoy the day, :cool:

You do still make a decision of your own though it might be limited by many factors. Your decisions are not always forced by someone. Even if you are forced to do something still you have a choice. Some factors are not under our control. We are definitely not a robot of God or Satan or any other authority. We might be influenced by someone or something. Our decision exposes our desires and our priority.

You do still make a decision of your own though it might be limited by many factors — Vipin

I'm not really clear on the OP definition of free will TBH. I don't think there's doubt that our decisions are our own, i.e. that the will is our own. I think the more difficult issue is whether "free will" has any value or inherent meaning if it can only be exercised within a highly constrained environment where your available choices are severely limited.