• Shawn
    13.3k
    Since Plato, we talk about the aims of education.

    Have we come along in answering that question? Should happiness be the main aim of education? And, if so, how do we achieve it?
  • Banno
    25.2k
    Why only one aim?
  • Shawn
    13.3k


    I edited the post. But, what's your take on the matter? Should happiness be the main aim we should be striving for in educating the youth?
  • Banno
    25.2k
    Sure, why not teach happiness. Amongst other things.
  • Shawn
    13.3k


    And, how would one go about doing that?
  • All sight
    333
    We're capitalists. Institutionally it is to get jobs, or fill particular occupations, isn't it?

    I mean, the purpose, and even meaning is very wide, and varied. It depends on what it is, and intentions, though it also exceeds both. Learning a martial art could be for confidence, health, carrying on a tradition, self-defense, the instillation of discipline. The teacher's intentions could range from total philanthropy to narcissistic egotism.

    As for the education system though, I think that it is mainly to situate you for particular occupations and employment.
  • Shawn
    13.3k
    We're capitalists. Institutionally it is to get jobs, or fill particular occupations, isn't it?All sight

    No, I don't believe so. It seems to me that we're brought into a world that is capitalistic rather than being a capitalist.

    Learning a martial art could be for confidence, health, carrying on a tradition, self-defense, the instillation of discipline. The teacher's intentions could range from total philanthropy to narcissistic egotism.All sight

    What do you mean by that? I don't understand what you mean by 'The teacher's intentions could range from total philanthropy to narcissistic egotism'.

    As for the education system though, I think that it is mainly to situate you for particular occupations and employment.All sight

    That's detrimental to the wellbeing of an individual, to think of themselves as a cog in a machine, or some such matter.
  • BC
    13.6k
    In an ideal world, the goals of education would be to...

    First, aid the individual in discovering what his native traits are -- the who and what I am.
    Second, to apprehend the nature of 'the world' in its physical and social manifestations.
    Third, to aid the individual in finding a congruent path between his nature and social expectations.
    Fourth, to discover what is for him good work, and acquire the necessary skills.

    Rats. Just noticed that we don't live in an ideal world. Well, that's a problem, but we can still pursue my Four Goals. (Note: This kind of education can not take place where society is in a state of advanced deterioration.)

    Primary school is still... 'primary'. Education for children through 6th or 8th grade is the critical phase. "High school" (9-12) really should be quite academic, but still not overly structured and restrictive. By the time one is 18 they will, one hopes, be reasonably insightful, reasonably capable, and reasonably socialized individuals. Of course, there is variation.

    Acquiring linguistic skills (reading, writing, listening, speaking) and numeracy requires structure. (This must begin in infancy when the parent is responsible for development.) Children need quite a bit of freedom (within safety limits) to discover who they are, at times without adult direction.

    Apprehending the physical and social nature of the world again requires structured learning, as well as unstructured interaction. Children need to be free to be who they are becoming. ('becoming' can be a very messy process; clean-up crews on hand?)

    A criticism: Parents aspiring to produce accomplished children fill their days with rigid school schedules and extra lessons in music, dance, sport--all sorts of structured activity. This runs counter to the child having unstructured time for personal discovery.

    Finding a congruent path between personal identity and social expectations requires ethical training. Some social expectations are good, and some are not. What one likes and dislikes isn't a sufficient guide. Individuals need a grounding in right and wrong as well.

    Finding good work (work that one likes, and which contributes to both the individual and society) is a daunting task--made more so by the state of advanced capitalism in which billions of people must operate. There is 'good work' available, but not nearly enough to go around. Most people are going to find 'good work' hard to find.

    I think children benefit growing up in a permissive -- and reasonably safe -- environment; what is permissive for young children may not be appropriate for older children, and visa versa. Actually, this is true for adults too. We like being able to explore possibilities without constant restraint and prohibitions.
  • BC
    13.6k
    My idea of progressive education is about as far from current practice as factory farming is from having chickens wandering around the barnyard doing their clucking bird thing. I'm on the side of the chickens in the barnyard, figuratively and literally.
  • BC
    13.6k
    As for the education system though, I think that it is mainly to situate you for particular occupations and employment.All sight

    This is a deadly 'instrumental' approach: feeding children through the educational processing plant to prepare them to fill slots in the capitalist machinery as cogs on wheels. We do this, of course, in as much as we know what jobs there will be (12 to 16 years into the future) and what the requirements to fill them are. The products of this processing will be mostly unable to assess why their lives have become one of monotonous production and consumption. What a waste!

    Unless you think that capitalism is the final organization of society, The People need to think about alternative arrangements to meet needs. From my perspective, capitalism is not the final form of society, and is, in fact, becoming the central threat to human fulfillment.
  • BC
    13.6k

    MentalHealthSpectrum.jpg

    We certainly want a much larger proportion of the population residing in the "flourishing" category. Nothing against positive psychology, but it seems like more will be required -- like changing material conditions of economies, for instance, to achieve the desirable end. For instance, the kind of school system that would promote positive psychology is most likely not the kind that @all sight suggested. But the factory school is what we've got because it suits economic ends.
  • All sight
    333
    You mean like reality is capitalistic, or society? I don't think that the university was originally for employment, but for the already wealthy, to get cultured and refined.

    I mean that if I teach you something, it is possible to do so for many purposes. Ranging from intending to solely elevate and benefit you, to attempting to solely elevate and benefit me...

    I figure that starving, lack of gainful employment, lack of respect and a sense of belonging, and being a social tool without a use is likely far worse for someone's well being than feeling like a "cog in a wheel".
  • All sight
    333


    Was there a golden age where people were happier and more fulfilled?
  • BC
    13.6k
    Was there a golden age where people were happier and more fulfilled?All sight

    I don't know.

    Can we assess the happiness of ages past? The dead are a devilishly difficulty demographic to survey.

    What we can do is assess the happiness people feel at the time of the survey. There are various institutions (Gallop organization, Michigan Institute for Social Research, etc. You can google happiness surveys. It's about what one would expect: Some countries are happier than others right now, and over time some countries have been happier and unhappier.

    It would certainly depend on "who you ask". The people on top are probably happier and more content than the people on the bottom. People whose modest expectations have been fulfilled are probably happier than those whose large expectations have only partially been fulfilled. Etc.
  • BC
    13.6k
    I figure that starving, lack of gainful employment, lack of respect and a sense of belonging, and being a social tool without a use is likely far worse for someone's well being than feeling like a "cog in a wheel".All sight

    In the world it is quite possible to not starve, have 'gainful employment', but still have a lack of respect and sense of belonging. The employed may still feel like a social tool with no use, or no positive use.

    Alienation and anomie. Many suffer from it. The cause is purposelessness, a lack of personally relevant purposefulness.
  • Shawn
    13.3k


    I'd like to thank you for this wonderful post. I think the first step in education is to understand our wants and needs first. How would you go about understanding your wants?

    First, aid the individual in discovering what his native traits are -- the who and what I am.Bitter Crank

    How would one go about this issue? Psychometric testing like IQ tests, and personality tests?

    Second, to apprehend the nature of 'the world' in its physical and social manifestations.Bitter Crank

    So, how does one go about doing this? Are you talking about the sciences or humanities?

    Third, to aid the individual in finding a congruent path between his nature and social expectations.Bitter Crank

    This is the process of individualization or socialization?

    Fourth, to discover what is for him good work, and acquire the necessary skills.Bitter Crank

    Yup, no comments here. Just some ambiguity about how to implement such a thing.

    Children need to be free to be who they are becoming. ('becoming' can be a very messy process; clean-up crews on hand?)Bitter Crank

    So, again individualization taking place is paramount. How does one encourage the becoming aspect of a child? Can it be accomplished through education?

    I know you addressed these questions; but, I'm just asking from my POV about their use.
  • Shawn
    13.3k


    So, what are your thoughts about individualization and socialization with respect to education? That's a question that's kind of bugging me.
  • Shawn
    13.3k
    You mean like reality is capitalistic, or society? I don't think that the university was originally for employment, but for the already wealthy, to get cultured and refined.All sight

    I meant that society is capitalistic where capitalism prevails. And universities were inherently democratic in most capitalist societies.

    I figure that starving, lack of gainful employment, lack of respect and a sense of belonging, and being a social tool without a use is likely far worse for someone's well being than feeling like a "cog in a wheel".All sight

    That's true; but, then it's a no win situation. With that in mind then the goal should be the development of happy workers or happy individuals in society.
  • All sight
    333


    I don't think it's complicated, and speaking of "relative happiness", a person in a society with a wider range between the well to dos, and the got nothin's may report themselves to be less happy and fulfilled than someone in a flatter land. Comparatively, we have television, full of beautiful super genius lovable gods surrounded by prosperity, and even see the representation of others on social media as aiming at implying as much about that about themselves as possible, and comparatively one may feel like an ugly miserable loser. So that it being uncommon for all of your siblings to survive childhood would not be as terrible, if it were happening to everyone.

    There is a certain degree of isolation, and insulation that takes place today like never before. Close my door and the world is gone.

    Though, aren't we all just really spoiled? Would it be better if it were a lot harder to survive (as it unquestionably was at all other points in history)? I don't find that suggestion off the wall or offensive, but I do find it dangerous, and irresponsible. Perhaps it is so that we rejoice and find fulfillment in the greatest of hardships, but cannot fight the urge to set fire to heaven, because everything's a little too perfect.
  • All sight
    333


    Yeah, and one can have everything, and be completely better off in every measurable respect to every other person not only alive, but that has ever lived, and still "feel" that way. At some point, the problem is you.
  • All sight
    333


    Happiness isn't some ideal goal... like the pursuit of it (which originally was the pursuit of property), but never acquisition. Just ever increasing levels of adulation. Sounds so banal, and sad.
  • Shawn
    13.3k


    Then how does one attain happiness in educational settings? Happiness is not easy to attain. There are different senses of happiness. Like one where 'highs' are pursued instead of contentment. Therefore contentment should be the aim of education to some degree.
  • Banno
    25.2k
    There's more than that, that's problematic with positive psychology. An exception that folk should be happy makes any misery a personnel failing, something to be solved.
  • Banno
    25.2k
    We're capitalists.All sight

    I'm not.
  • Shawn
    13.3k
    We need to talk about aims because aims provide criteria by which we judge our choices of goals, objectives, and subject content. Aims-talk can also be directed at the larger society and its policies. Both functions are important.
  • All sight
    333


    Do you mean like satisfaction? Like they're happy with the education they got, rather than feeling displeased? Or do you mean reaching a place where one just feels good feelings all the time, and never bad ones? The first seems rudimentary, and the second terribly nightmarish.
  • All sight
    333


    Of course not, you're a hippopotamus.
  • Shawn
    13.3k
    Do you mean like satisfaction? Like they're happy with the education they got, rather than feeling displeased? Or do you mean reaching a place where one just feels good feelings all the time, and never bad ones? The first seems rudimentary, and the second terribly nightmarish.All sight

    Well, yes to the first; but, the intricate problem is that these aren't issues that can be addressed through education, or can they?
  • All sight
    333


    You can't answer "yes" to a multiple choice question...

    The first is like anything at all, any product, service, public good, it has to be satisfactory to some extent, and not a complete let down. Otherwise why keep it around?
  • Banno
    25.2k
    What a brilliant reply. You win.
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