Is it failing? It has failed, utterly and completely. Take a glace at public discourse, popular culture, politics, entertainment. The word that always comes to mind is misosophic - the hatred of wisdom.

Is it failing? It has failed, utterly and completely. Take a glace at public discourse, popular culture, politics, entertainment. The word that always comes to mind is misosophic - the hatred of wisdom. — Modern Conviviality

Maybe you're talking about anti-intellectualism in America? I find it hard to disagree if you adopt that terminology. I just wonder why intellectualism in America is shunned and disregarded and treated with such contempt, which I believe you're getting at?

So, why is this so?

I have a strong suspicion that people who are raised in societies that put a great emphasis on interpersonal relations, spiritual growth, and the happenings of society tend to flourish and produce more social oriented/conscious individuals. — Posty McPostface

What countries would be like this?

By fail I mean to imply that we are creating a future where acts of charity or altruism are viewed as irrational or non-rational pursuits and the gratification of personal needs and wants is placed on a pedestal. — Posty McPostface

Yet is this what the education system educates us? I think what you are talking about is more about the American attitudes towards work, career and values in general and perhaps about social cohesion. Things that I think aren't so much touched in the education systems anywhere. It's more about math, science, languages etc. in the education system.

What countries would be like this? — ssu

Most West European and Scandinavian countries, in my mind.

Yet is this what the education system educates us? I think what you are talking about is more about the American attitudes towards work, career and values in general and perhaps about social cohesion. Things that I think aren't so much touched in the education systems anywhere. It's more about math, science, languages etc. in the education system. — ssu

So, why do we not instill values in the youth? Why aren't those all important topics 'touched' in the American education system or anywhere else, as you say?

my envy of social democracies in Europe — Posty McPostface

Wasn't it just yesterday that hordes of refugees were paddling across the Aegean Sea for Europe, and marching up the Balkans on their way to the promised land, much to the horror of many Europeans? Didn't Italy decide that they weren't going to accept any more wretched refuse from N. Africa's teeming shores yearning for larger incomes? Didn't Angela Merkel reduce the Willkommen she had earlier offered? England didn't want the young refugees camped out on the French end of the tunnel, and France didn't either. Hungary built a fence. Etc.

Are you aware that there is homelessness in Europe? Slums? Drug addiction? Poverty? Crooked corporations?

True -- Europe has done a better job with social welfare systems (SWS) than the United States: social welfare got its start in Europe decades before the US could bring itself to construct even a stingy assistance program. However, Europeans have had to pay heavy taxes to finance the SWS. I too envy Europes SWS, and wish we could do half as well.

Over time, Europe may find it more difficult to main the SWS as it stands. We'll see.

Are you aware that there is homelessness in Europe? Slums? Drug addiction? Poverty? Crooked corporations? — Bitter Crank

They don't have opioid epidemics, their stance towards drugs is commendable, and they have less crime than the US. These are topics that most Americans going to or returning from college, are taught by news agencies instead of in school, where it should take place.

With all that said. The claim that I'm creating a straw man here may be entirely justified on how educated you are.

Am I somewhat uneducated then?

Am I somewhat uneducated then? — Posty McPostface

no

:razz: :up:

Then again, no one can be perfectly educated, and the ambition to become better educated is always a good thing for, well, typically, at least those individuals that are educated.

no

:razz: :up:

Then again, no one can be perfectly educated, and the ambition to become better educated is always a good thing for, well, typically, at least those individuals that are educated. — javra

Thanks!

I feel as though the discussion is devoid of an example. Let's take Trump's presidency and ongoing support as an example of the failure of the American education system. Would one agree with this?

So, why do we not instill values in the youth? — Posty McPostface

Of course we do instill values in the youth. But remember, America is a quite heterogenous society.

A 13 year old was kicking a soccer ball against the front of the church across the street from me. He had been doing this for quite some time. Eventually a kick went awry and the ball went through a frosted-textured glass window. $400. He went home and told his mother who came to the church office to arrange some kind of restorative justice program involving her son having to work off some of the cost of the window.

Kicking the ball against the front of the church might have been a bad idea, but the kid was 13. 13 year olds don't think that far ahead. He fulfilled the agreement we worked out. One has to conclude that he had been taught good values.

On the other hand, there are children who have been taught quite different lessons, involving the appropriateness of lying, cheating, and stealing, and carrying guns to school. Many of these children are quite young, and also do not thing very far ahead.

Most children are reasonably well socialized with reasonably decent values. Alas, not all.

Most children are reasonably well socialized with reasonably decent values. Alas, not all. — Bitter Crank

So, are we creating a better future for them with our current educational system in America? I wonder.

I loathe Donald Trump, but you can't blame his election on "the American education system". Some poorly educated people voted for Clinton, and some well educated people voted for Trump. He didn't win in the popular vote, remember.

The little red school house isn't there to train people to vote for or against particular candidates, even if the school teachers find a particular candidate to be thoroughly loathsome.

Most children are reasonably well socialized with reasonably decent values. Alas, not all. — Bitter Crank

You only need one in a hundred to cause havoc. Unfortunately in most schools there are several hundred students and a lot of those that have parents believe it is the schools job to teach values to their kids.

So, are we creating a better future for them with our current educational system in America? I wonder. — Posty McPostface

Posty, you're asking the schools to bear unreasonable levels of responsibility. Schools do well (not just to day, but at any time) if students leave being able to read, write, do sums; know their basic history, have some understanding of science, and know how to carry on a civil discussion. They may not teach civics any more, but civics was never about "who to vote for". It was about structures of government and was pretty boring.

The whole society is creating either a better or worse future for our youth.

The little red school house isn't there to train people to vote for or against particular candidates, even if the school teachers find a particular candidate to be thoroughly loathsome. — Bitter Crank

No, but if one had values that they held dear, such as treating women fairly, which isn't too much to ask for in our modern day civilization, then he wouldn't have got elected.

Why is Trump a serious candidate in the US up for reelection (which I think he will be reelected), otherwise in Europe he would be dismissed as a fringe political entity?

Most West European and Scandinavian countries, in my mind. — Posty McPostface

Well, I've gone through the Finnish education system up to a Masters degree in the University and have had a brief contact with the American educational system (2nd grade in Primary School and briefly in Junior High). What I noticed is that the American system was easy and had far lower objectives in math, history, nearly everything than in Finland. It was like designed to create mediocre students for higher education.

I think what you are asking for isn't basically taught in schools. Let's take our love for our welfare state and our acceptance of higher taxes. It's taught more simply with the services provided, which makes people even on the right here to totally accept them. If that creates more social cohesion is an interesting question.

So, why do we not instill values in the youth? Why aren't those all important topics 'touched' in the American education system or anywhere else, as you say? — Posty McPostface

Wonder what those would be that wouldn't be 'touched'. Perhaps the problem is that everything is only touched in the US system.

What was different here from the American experience was that religion is taught in schools as the country has Lutheranism as state religion (which is absolutely different from let's say American evangelicalism). In fact I think I had my best teachers in religion, two male teachers, the principal and the vice-principal, and they had wonderful way of teaching things. They'd start like this: 1) Here's a moral problem. 2) Here's how Christianity answers to it. 3) What you have to do is find your own answer. Otherwise you aren't yet an adult. They cared less about the actual official curriculum and taught far more about philosophy and simply tried to get us thinking about moral ethics and philosophical questions. (OK, I have to admit it was an elite school.)

I think they came closest to what you are looking for in education (perhaps).

parents believe it is the schools job to teach values to their kids — Sir2u

Oh yes, I understand that. But parents establish the values of their children, for better and for worse--quite often the latter.

You only need one in a hundred to cause havoc. — Sir2u

Very true. I went through a very small town school (1952-64) where havoc rarely, if ever, existed. I understand, of course, that times have changed. Even my little town school has problems today it didn't have when I was there, let alone what goes on in large urban school districts.

Posty, you're asking the schools to bear unreasonable levels of responsibility. Schools do well (not just to day, but at any time) if students leave being able to read, write, do sums; know their basic history, have some understanding of science, and know how to carry on a civil discussion. — Bitter Crank

If they can prepare 18 year olds for work or for the university, then they have been successful. And that doesn't give much other time than to school math, foreign languages, chemistry, physics, biology, etc.

It was like designed to create mediocre students for higher education. — ssu

We do boast the most esteemed colleges in the world, so I wonder too how is that possible given such a dismal primary and secondary education system. Why is there such a discrepancy here in the States with regards to primary and secondary schools and universities?

I think they came closest to what you are looking for in education (perhaps). — ssu

Not quite. I'm advocating for more social conscious individuals, which as you mentioned tend to promote social cohesion, which I think it does. How to encourage people who care about the environment, politics, the drug war, and crime, should be topics worth pursuing and talking about in schools.

It's almost as if there was a stigma with doing that to some degree.

But parents establish the values of their children, for better and for worse--quite often the latter. — Bitter Crank

Where I work we have about 1,300 students, PreS - 11, many of them see their parents when they get up and if they are lucky for a few minutes before they go to bed. I had parent ask me recently what I am doing about his kids behavior because all got from me was complaints about the kid not working in class and making a lot of noise to distract others. The boss was not happy when the parent told her my reply,

"I am paid to try and educate your son, if you cannot teach him to shut up and listen to the teacher then there is nothing more I can do for him except send you messages about how he misbehaves."

I went through a very small town school (1952-64) where havoc rarely, if ever, existed. — Bitter Crank

I went to 13 different schools in England, Canada and the USA, and I cannot remember any of them ever having to have teachers supervising recess, there was usually one around somewhere but not policing the kids like they have to do today. Most of the time the kids were the ones to make sure everyone behaved properly so that the teachers would stay away.

I always attended public schools; we used to have "release time religious education" -- about 4 hours a week students left school to receive religious education. That has since been ruled unconstitutional. The Catholics and Lutherans were most active in this.

Where did we get our values from? 1. Parents, the church, the school, and from "the community".

Parents may not teach good values, but they have a privileged position to model what is right and wrong. Many children in our community attended Sunday school every week -- Catholic or Protestant both. There was church, and youth groups besides. The school teachers in our town didn't talk about religion [politics and religion were verboten], but they modeled what was expected: diligence, honesty, fairness... that sort of thing. Some of the scout leaders were good moral teachers. Then there was the community. In small towns (less than 2000 pop.) at the time I was a kid, people did keep an eye on children, and reported misbehavior. No child liked that but... it restrained the options for gross misbehavior.

We do boast the most esteemed colleges in the world, so I wonder too how is that possible given such a dismal primary and secondary education system. Why is there such a discrepancy here in the States with regards to primary and secondary schools and universities? — Posty McPostface

Simply because there are so many of you. We just have the equivalent population of Minnesota. That leaves +320 million other Americans that don't live in Minnesota, so I guess there are ample amount of smart kids for the Ivy League colleges.

How to encourage people who care about the environment, politics, the drug war, and crime, should be topics worth pursuing and talking about in schools. — Posty McPostface

But those are encompassed into the subjects themselves, which you only notice afterwards (and not as a child). In biology from 1st grade they tell ypu how harmful it is to through away a plastic bag into the wild. Later it's shown the harm that smoking does to lungs when the kids are young teens. My boy who is 10 years had to read a book about climate change in the polar region (with penguins and polar bears on opposite poles). Just to give examples. They aren't overtly political subjects, but some on the right (or the left) can see a bias (if they want to see).

I wonder too how is that possible given such a dismal primary and secondary education system. Why is there such a discrepancy here in the States with regards to primary and secondary schools and universities? — Posty McPostface

We are a pluralistic society, remember. Just because the schools in one part of town are shitholes doesn't mean that ALL the schools in town are equally bad. Even in a shithole school, there may be a successful college track program for some students.

Those students whose parents are reasonably affluent will locate themselves in school districts where their children will get a good education. Usually those school districts are suburban. The quality of education in a good, college-tracking high school is going to be altogether different than the experience that will be received in a run-down 'fuck'em' school where it is assumed the children have no future. Maybe 10% to 20% of children are in really decent schools which actually prepare them for college work.

I was deemed to be too stupid to be in the college track program (such as it was). I was with the majority of students who, it was supposed, would take their place in a low level job after high school. I was lucky -- I went to college anyway -- nothing even remotely ivy league to be sure -- and it was an all-round good experience (except for the teacher prep program which turned out to be a total waste of time and money).

Anyway, the college prep students in my small high school took chemistry, physics, more advanced math classes, and a language. The sub-fucks took office skills and shop classes.

Those students whose parents are reasonably affluent will locate themselves in school districts where their children will get a good education. Usually those school districts are suburban. The quality of education in a good, college-tracking high school is going to be altogether different than the experience that will be received in a run-down 'fuck'em' school where it is assumed the children have no future. — Bitter Crank

This can make the gap severe if the quality of schooling is truly totally different. In Third World countries this is an even bigger problem.

Yet I have to point out that this is a very persistent phenomenon even if the teachers would be at a similar level and when there wouldn't be a huge difference in the education. As you pointed out, much depends on the attitudes of the parents and then also during teenage years the attitudes of your friends, your social group. If you have a blue collar family living in a blue collar neighbourhood, especially the boys relate to their class with preferring work done by hand and not reading books. One crucial difference is if those who study hard are teased to be "teachers pets" or not. Class isn't something imposed from the outside, class is also something imposed from your family and from the social group you belong to.

Another difference are things like choosing the topics. As you said: "chemistry, physics, more advanced math classes, and a language. The sub-fucks took office skills and shop classes." This also creates the meritocracy in our society. Engineers and doctors make more money than shop assistants.