mhmmm.. and what percentage of muslim people are inbred? — Blue Lux
The atheistic position does not need some transpersonal authority, which somehow is anthropomorphic, to settle the affairs of a mammalian brain. There are methods by which a person can figure out what they should or should not do which are simply much better than adhering to the rules of a bronze age mythology. — Blue Lux
If this is so, then you should have no trouble telling us just what right is, and just what wrong is.Knowledge of right and wrong are innate. Humans are born knowing right and wrong. — Ram
Warrant for this assertion?Islam is the innate religion — Ram
I agree with this - I'd add doing: morality is about knowing right from wrong and acting accordingly. And right is? And wrong is?As far as defining morality.... I would say morality is "right and wrong". Knowledge of morality I think is knowing right and wrong. — Ram
I provided an argument as well. My idea of a valid argument isn't yours. — Ram
Sounds delusional? Don't you have any amount of something within you which tells you that you should be prepared to sacrifice yourself for something bigger than yourself? — Ram
I have a completely different mindset than you do. I don't think life is about being happy.
This life is temporary and is a test. Oppression? It happens. It is what it is. I have a concept of oppression, probably you too. But what that concept consists of and what role it plays are very different I think in our two minds. — Ram
No, I didn't say any of that. I simply hope Allah grants me a good death. — Ram
My thinking isn't your thinking. Jannah exists. I don't care about the alleged possibility that it doesn't exist. There is no possibility of it not existing, as it does exist. I don't care what atheists think. I am supposed to strive for Jannah so I hope for Jannah. — Ram
The arranged marriage is more the family finds a suitor and it's sort of an offer. The woman isn't forced to marry the man. Islamically, it is up to her. — Ram
Is it a sin to steal out of hunger? I'm not sure. I think in the hypothetical example you describe it's not punished. — Ram
I already get that there are extreme situations where for example a person might be compelled to do something. God is Forgiving and God understands things.
Furthermore, not everyone understands that stealing and murder is wrong. Many people don't believe "wrong" exists. People in general are not moral. Furthermore, morality covers not only murder and stealing but also sexuality. I think we probably have very different views in that department. — Ram
I don't think there is a Caliphate right now. There was the Ottoman Caliphate and I think that was the last one for now. — Ram
In the context of philosophy an argument from authority is not considered to be sufficient. You would need to make a further argument as to why the authority is correct; in which case the authority itself becomes redundant. You have not done that. — Janus
that is up to you my friend! What do you think is right!? I think love, happiness, freedom and care is right, and these things are greater than any conception. Im not interested in telling people what is right or wrong for whatever reason based upon whatever. I am interested in agreeing, colloquially, with people and premising feelings.
Im not going to murder someone not because I think it is wrong. But because I have no desire to murder and i think it is grotesque. Why should I need an absolute? — Blue Lux
If you were born in India you might be Hindu, and you would be fervently pursuing their values as opposed to your own. If you were born to atheist parents maybe you would be fervently pursuing irreligion and reason... — VagabondSpectre
At first when you said people in general are not moral, I was going to outright disagree, people are moral especially in general, but not I'm starting to think that you might just have severely backwards moral beliefs, and so you think "live and let live" is actually somehow immoral... — VagabondSpectre
Why must I sacrifice my life in the first place? Shouldn't we all just get along and value life? — VagabondSpectre
So "do not steal" should not always be obeyed, right? Doesn't that make it subjective or relative or at least not objective? — VagabondSpectre
So you aren't willing to honestly asses the truth of your own beliefs, and choose consciously to dogmatically accept and pursue them? — VagabondSpectre
And what if she IS forced? She can then flee and presumably have sex outside of that marriage, right? Even though the original husband may still want her stoned to death for adultery.... — VagabondSpectre
You said "I hope fervently for a good death", and you gave examples of randomly dying at a certain place or dying in defense of your family. My notion of a good death is old age and ideally surrounded by loved ones. Is that tragic? You don;t seem to care about other people (or yourself) so long as you pass your own test. — VagabondSpectre
Your personal beliefs won't stop other people from rallying around a Caliph and potentially accusing you of heresy for not also rallying when asked. The Shiites are just wrong, right? — VagabondSpectre
If you want to tell consenting adults what they can and cannot do with their own genitals, then yes we have very different views. Why you think you have any business telling other people how or why or with whom to have sex remains a mystery to me. Should we stone homosexuals to death? — VagabondSpectre
So if god asks you to sacrifice your only son as a test, you would do it? — VagabondSpectre
Your framework has not been shown to be philosophical, but merely religious, and hence there is no place for it on a philosophy forum. A religious framework can become philosophical if you can provide at least minimally philosophically acceptable arguments to support it. You have not done that, so, in other words you are on the wrong forum trying to engage with the wrong people. — Janus
Morality is secular precisely because it is objective.
If it were religiously defined, moral character would cease to be defined on the basis of the morality of an action, instead being based upon a whim which religious belief someone belonged to. Since morality is eternal, that's to say it does not depend on belonging to one religion or another, it is of secular character.
Regardless of a person particular religious beliefs or politics, morality hold itself. It cannot morph, present or alter on account of what religion (if any) someone belongs to. One cannot be mortal or not simply be belonging to a religion.
A theocratic morality is no better than claiming your actions have moral virtue because you belong to a football team. Or a political group. Or because you like mints. — TheWillowOfDarkness
I am for reason. Islam is for reason. As far as India... I know Muslims from India. I also know a devout Christian who was born to atheist parents. Not everyone follows what their parents believe. — Ram
Maybe you believe humans in general are moral. I don't. — Ram
The world is not a Disney movie. Humans are born into struggle. Things happen. — Ram
I didn't say that. The context is considered. I don't think there's a context where theoretically a person should steal food. However, a starving person stealing a loaft of bread is different than a rich person doing it. There's nothing subjective about it. The situations are objectively different. — Ram
The truth of Islam is that it's true. You have your way of thinking, I have mine. — Ram
If a woman is forced into marriage... I have no idea. She's not supposed to be forced into marriage. If that happens, it's against Islam and I'm not sure how the situation should be dealt with. Allah knows best. — Ram
Are you out to impose your framework on me? I am simply explaining my point of view. You can accept it or not accept it. — Ram
I'm around quite a bit of Muslims and haven't had any problem like you describe. As for the Shia, the Shia are a deviant sect — Ram
I don't tell other people what they should or shouldn't do. God dictates what we should and shouldn't do. — Ram
Hopefully. — Ram
Why? Just because someone said so? Why did they believe it? — VagabondSpectre
So technically someone ought to starve to death before stealing? — VagabondSpectre
What good is your blind faith to a book which you think gives us all the answers if you cannot actually extract answers from? — VagabondSpectre
I'm trying nto do "philosophy" by comparing our worldviews to see which one is more appealing, more sensical, more rational, and more moral. — VagabondSpectre
Yes but you tell other people what god says we should and shouldn't do. Other people say god says differently. I say you're all either dumb, deluded, or deceitful. — VagabondSpectre
And the Shia say that the Sunni are a deviant sect. How can I tll the difference between the deviant and the true? (hint: everything is deviant or nothing is) — VagabondSpectre
The truth of your position cannot be that it is true. That's not only circular, it's incoherent. Why is Islam the true one?
I need a reason to be persuaded by, otherwise the Hindu or the Buddhist will just come along and persuade me in favor of their beliefs instead of yours. I need evidence. — VagabondSpectre
Sometimes good things happen. Why should I assume this live is a test? Why should I not strive to avoid the bad things and promote the good things (based on our shared values)? — VagabondSpectre
If you think that god wants you to execute your child, please check yourself into a mental institution so that they can make sure you're not insane and are actually hearing the commands of the one true god. I'm sure they'll understand, as will your son, and it will be a very happy event, with flowers and dancing. — VagabondSpectre
We cannot "derive" morality form the mere fact someone speaks because it means there are no grounds to the argument. — TheWillowOfDarkness
Maybe ideally. If they do it to avoid starving, I think it's permissible. — Ram
More appealing to who? I'm wondered about what is appealing to God — Ram
Allah guides whom He wills. I recommend you read the Yusuf Ali translation of the Quran. I think you should study what it has to say before you dismiss it. — Ram
There is tons of stuff discussing why the Shia are deviant and misguided. That is a whole other discussion and I would refer you to other resources. I am not an expert on the Shia. However, to understand the matter you would need to understand Islam. Study Islam first and you'll be in a better position to understand. — Ram
The truth of Islam is that it's the true religion. — Ram
I've recommended that you read the Yusuf Ali translation of the Quran. If you want to learn about Islam, that is what I recommend. If you do it or not is up to you and is your responsibility. — Ram
We don't share values. I don't care about our alleged shared values or what you think and don't expect you to follow what I think. You think what you think, I think what I think. I am fine with that and don't expect you to think like me and don't care about what others think. I go off what I think. — Ram
Why should assume this life is a test? Well... do you believe in the Quran? It seems- no. Well, if you believe in the Quran you believe this life is a test. I believe in the Quran. If you don't, you don't. — Ram
You said what would I do if God told me to sacrifice my child. I never said anything about God telling me to do something like that and I don't hear God telling me to do things. I go off the Quran and the Sunnah. If God suddenly appeared to me and I believed it was God.... I guess so. But I seriously doubt that would happen and I've known a lot of Muslims and Christians and I've never encountered a case where that occurred. — Ram
So you're not interested in what anyone else thinks, and believe that you and your beliefs are the best thing since sliced bread... Not untypical levels of arrogance... — VagabondSpectre
It's one of the archetypal stories found in the Abrahamic religions (Islam included). God told Abraham to sacrifice his only son, and he was ready to do it. It was a test of devotion, and it's scary that people are ready to believe they communicate with god to a degree that they (you) would actually kill other human beings, including their own son, if they believe god told them to do so. — VagabondSpectre
You're here proclaiming Islam to be the true religion and you're unable to even properly defend it. Isn't that a sin? When you are summoned to defend your beliefs from sincere challenge, you need to do so right? — VagabondSpectre
What about Islam is true? All of it? The parts you believe are true? The parts the most intelligent Sunni scholar believes? — VagabondSpectre
Why should I believe in the Qur'an? — VagabondSpectre
Should I study ancient Greek texts before I dismiss Zeus as god? Telling me to read this or that isn;t going to persuade me. I'm not interested in what you've read, I'm interested in what you know and can demonstrate to be true. — VagabondSpectre
Maybe? You think?
Where are you're lofty "objective" standards at? — VagabondSpectre
Different religions tell different stories about what god(s) want. How do you know the set of stories you were born into or adopted are the right set of stories? — VagabondSpectre
Shia experts have similar stories about how Sunni's are the misguided ones. Stop fooling yourself. What is the evidence that shows Sunni Islam to be true and Shia Islam to be false? If I take your word for it, or the word of Sunni scholars, why shouldn't I take the word of Shia's and Shia scholars? — VagabondSpectre
I don't hear God talking to me. — Ram
All of Islam is true. — Ram
Because it is the word of Allah. — Ram
It isn't about persuading you. I've done my part by pointing in the right direction. What you do is up to you. Allah guides whom He wills. I've said this enough times that insha'Allah you might understand it. — Ram
Should you study Greek texts before dismissing Zeus?? Zeus is fictitious. Allah is not fictitious. — Ram
Believe me or don't. You're going to meet Him. — Ram
That is a long story and I'm not interested in telling you my biography. Believe or don't. — Ram
"Shia experts"- no such thing. The Shia are wrong. — Ram
If you want to learn more about the Shia stuff, you would need to learn about Islam first. Then we could go into that. That is a whole other subject and you would need to go into other resources. You don't get all your knowledge off forum posts. — Ram
You don't even have to take it from me. If you want to know Existentialism- my title basically just boiled it down in a nutshell. Take it from Sartre if you don't want to take it from me. — Ram
And what are those methods? — Ram
Morality from a secular position is necessarily subjective. — Ram
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