• schopenhauer1
    10.9k
    This was a post in another thread, but I thought it would be interesting as its own thread.

    Here are some thoughts:

    Being "thrown into existence" is a political act, whether it is overtly stated that way or not by the parent. That is to say, a certain stance is made about existence, and more specifically human existence, which is one couched in a social sphere- a society.

    A society is comprised of a community of people (traditionally) in a geographical area, interacting with each other, following similar rules and guidelines, and broadly-speaking, sharing some similarity in values. One of the values that all societies seem to share is that a "flourishing" should take place for the family/individual/whole community. What that flourishing looks like, and the methodology to get there can vary widely, but it seems to be the case that some sort of homeostatic "living well" is a part of this. This definition does not have to be tied strictly to Eudaimonia, but simply the idea of surviving (usually comfortably), and in a sort of continual and consistent lifestyle.

    The parents of a child, if they bring their child to term (taking away discussions of abortion for now), usually believe that a new person should be enculturated into a society- that is to say, they should learn the lifestyle and methodology of surviving within a certain community. This enculturation and methodology is deemed as good. There is something, they think, a new person should experience about that community. For example, they can experience personal accomplishment through projects/work. They can experience joy in laughter with friends. They can experience being cared for and caring for a significant other. They can experience the psychological state of "flow"- being super focused in an activity that matches a person's interests and abilities. Also they can experience the pleasures of learning a skill or area of knowledge, and becoming an expert. They can experience being a citizen in a broader community by participating in a number of roles and events. The person can experience the various avenues of physical and more abstract mental pleasures that a community can provide. This hope for a well-adjusted human that "thrives" in a community is probably the kind of thing a thoughtful parent is aiming for. They like these aspects of the community/life and want a new person to also experience a community/life. It is very much sociologically-based reasoning. Even religious-based reasons are sociological-based. A new person needs to be born to experience the glories of serving that god. There is believed to be a goodness to the community serving the god, usually. Even scientific-oriented parents can have a similar idea about their progeny. The progeny can contribute to the technology/science, and overall knowledge of mankind through their community, thus being perceived as "enhancing" their community.

    Not only is it sociological in aims, but the act of reproduction is by definition a communal affair. Two people have to have enjoyed life or thought life good enough to get together within their respective communities, had sex, and carried a child out to term. This is again, a sociological act. There is an affirmation in all of this- by the act of two people coming together, and by the aims of thoughtful parents for how they want their potential child to live.

    So to conclude this section, and circle back to my original statement, parents are consenting that, yes, they like society and feel it is their right to continue it forward with a new person to experience that society and continue the existence of that society. Hence, it is a political act, if not overtly. Actually, it may be the political act. Without procreation, there is no community/lifestyle/experience of said lifestyle to be had by anyone. Thus, the ultimate political "yay" or "in favor of" is procreation.

    However, what is not usually recognized is the structural suffering inherent in existence- built into the human affair. Structural means that it is not based on contingent circumstances like genetics, place of birth, circumstances in time/place, or fortune. Structural suffering can be seen in things like the inherent "lack" that pervades the animal/human psyche. We are lacking at almost all times. The need for food and shelter, the need for mates, the need for friends, the need for interesting projects, the need for flow states, the need for comfortable environments. These "goods" represents things WE DO NOT HAVE (aka lack). We are constantly STRIVING for what is hoped to be fulfilling, but at the end, only temporarily fills the lack state, and for short duration. Structural suffering can also be seen in the psychological state of boredom. I don't see boredom as just another state, I see it as an almost baseline- state. It is a "proof" of existence's own unfulfilled state. This leads again, striving for what we lack. There is a certain burden of being- the burdens of making do- of getting by, of surviving, of filling the lack, of dealing with existence. That we have to deal in the first place is suspect. That not everyone is committing suicide is not a "pro" for the "post facto, people being born is justified" stance. Rather, suicide and being born in the first place are incommensurable.

    Then of course, there is the contingent suffering (what is commonly what is thought of as suffering). This is the circumstantial suffering of physical/psychological pains that pervade an individual's life. This may be any form of physical or more emotional pain that befalls a person.

    The parents' perspective are that the goods of life, the encultration into society for which these goods are to be had, is something to be experienced and carried forward. Structural suffering is not even seen in the picture. You only go with the information you have at hand, and you deem most important. Structural suffering is not a concept most parents think about, even if it is the main governing principle of animal/human existence. As far as contingent suffering, it has been well-documented the optimism bias that we have in underestimating the harms for past and future events.
  • Shawn
    13.2k
    If all of this is true, and we know that a tree will fall in an empty forest with no people around, then what's left is coping.

    Please start a thread on how to cope with this lack and structural suffering you speak of.
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k
    Please start a thread on how to cope with this lack and structural suffering you speak of.Posty McPostface

    Start a community that sees life in this way. You see, one really interesting bit about the political aspect of this is that, de facto, you are a small minority in the political sphere of actions towards society. The first act was you being born. The next is you being swept along in it. You cannot complain too much, you cannot explain the structural suffering too long to common folk. This will arouse ire. You cannot exist in a vacuum, yelling into the void. But perhaps there can be a counter coup of sorts. A cadre of people willing to listen and understand the problems at hand. A community of philosophical pessimists that see this view. Buddhism is a close cousin with its first two Noble Truths. However, this is still metaphysically-rooted in ideas of karma and reincarnation.

    Overall, there can be more open discussions on the dissatisfaction of the human condition. In the West, and especially America, there is a need to try to cover it up or deny it. Rather, it can be more discussed, talked about on a social level. Individual acts of procreation, are not just personal events- it is societal. Collectively it literally makes and reproduces society. What is it we as a society are doing that the dissatisfactions that are structural are necessary to continue it? These things need to be discussed more openly, as a society, and without the knee-jerk contempt for those who bring these questions up.
  • Shawn
    13.2k
    Start a community that sees life in this way.schopenhauer1

    Yes, but how ought are community ought look like?
  • ssu
    8.5k
    parents are consenting that, yes, they like society and feel it is their right to continue it forward with a new person to experience that society and continue the existence of that society. Hence, it is a political act, if not overtly.schopenhauer1
    In many places people have children so that there is someone to help you and especially to take care of you when you are old. If you don't have a family and those children to take care of you when you aren't able to work anymore, you will be at worst a hungry beggar on the streets.

    (This example is just to point out that the OP is quite narrowed to a very affluent and individualistic Western society, mainly the US.)
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k
    Yes, but how ought are community ought look like?Posty McPostface

    It would be a local contingent, like that of community activists, meetup groups, online groups, things like that.
  • BC
    13.5k
    "Reproduction is a Political Act"

    So is not reproducing--even more political, really. Reproduction is a default. You have to develop reasons to take the anti-natalist view for which you will receive not much support. It's kind of like advocating socialism in America; it comes close to just whistling dixie.

    The first act was you being born.schopenhauer1

    Well, not really.

    Our being born wasn't our acts -- it was much more our mothers' acts. Had you been in charge, you would have started out by holding your breath, thus sparing yourself this whole dreary business. We had absolutely nothing to do with our conceptions, either. Nor did we have anything to do with the long line of predecessors, going back 3 or 4 billion years.

    Our first act, something that we could claim as our own, didn't come along for some time after being born--sometime when we were around two, and discovered that we could refuse to cooperate. The terrible twos... children learning that they have this nugget of agency.

    Antinatalism is an affair of adolescents ("I never asked to be born" she screamed in rage at being ordered to clean up her room) and adults with a particular bent.

    It would be a local contingent, like that of community activists, meetup groups, online groups, things like that.schopenhauer1

    Would you have movie nights, pot luck meals, board game and card parties, sing-alongs, dances...? What anti-fertility holidays would you celebrate--Artemis, Athena, and Hestia? Mary was ever virgin but she did reproduce -- though with suspiciously unorthodox methods. Christmas? Jesus didn't reproduce, as far as we know. Dionysius would be a good male god -- I don't think he reproduced, but he did like a wild party (he is also know under the name of Bacchus, he with wine and grapes.) He had a rather unorthodox birth, too -- his mother Semele was zapped while he was in utero, so Zeus sewed up the baby Dionysius in his thigh to finish developing. (Don't try it at home.)

    There is "idealistic" antinatalism and practical antinatalism. I subscribe more to the practical version. There are too fucking many of us, and the more people who don't reproduce (up to a point) the better. But by no means is non-reproduction going to result in a better life for the antinatalist. As SSU pointed out, without younger able bodied people to help one along, one's old age will be a wretched affair.

    We know what this looks like, because small towns in various places -- Italy, Japan, rural parts of the US, and elsewhere become depopulated. The young leave first, because there is no economic role for them in that little village. The middle-aged leave next, and that leaves the old who can not manage to move, and who weren't taken along by their middle aged children if there were any. The old folks carry on; they help each other if they can, but loneliness and deprivation become their lot.

    Having children who live near by (especially daughters) is strongly correlated with quality of aged life. Isolated people usually die sooner, and more often of neglect. Without sufficient wealth to pay for assisted living facilities, one's future can be bleak, if one isn't healthy in one's old age. And it doesn't take all that much to shift from hail and hardy (or is it hearty?) to frail and failing. One bad fall on the ice can be the critical event.

    Were we all watched over by machines of loving grace, antinatalism would be more attractive.
  • ssu
    8.5k
    Having children who live near by (especially daughters) is strongly correlated with quality of aged life. Isolated people usually die sooner, and more often of neglect. Without sufficient wealth to pay for assisted living facilities, one's future can be bleak, if one isn't healthy in one's old age. And it doesn't take all that much to shift from hail and hardy (or is it hearty?) to frail and failing. One bad fall on the ice can be the critical event.Bitter Crank
    Seems like my point also works in the affluent US example, not just in the Third World.
  • Inyenzi
    81
    Is eating a political act? When I eat food to nourish my body and end my hunger, am I voting YES! for my continued embodiment?

    I think it's more mindless than that (i.e. I'm hungry, I eat, and by consequence my embodiment sustains), and it's the same mindlessness with reproduction. This type of rational, deliberate sort of reproduction you describe where people sit down with their partners and decide to bring a child into the world would be very rare if not non-existent. For the vast majority of the planet, (to put it very crudely), people fuck and then babies happen, and by consequence the human species and it's suffering proliferates itself.

    Is rabbit reproduction a political act? From what I've seen human reproduction is just as much a mindless biological function. But even in the case of the rational, deliberate parents to be, their motivations for having the child are far more likely to be related to some sort of end or aim of their own, than for the sake of the non-existent yet-to-be (can you even do something for the sake of a nothing?). For example: because of pressure from parents, because it's what's expected of you once you cohabit or marry, because you think it will strengthen your marriage, because you think babies are cute and want one, because you want something to depend on you, because you have a drive to nurture and want to satisfy that drive, because all your friends are having children and you feel left out, because you don't want to be old and alone with nobody to care for you, because you feel it's an essential part of being a woman, etc. Ends and aims like these are what hide in the background, being the true motivators for the 'rational parents' reproduction, who then retrospectively claim he/she brought the child into the world for it's own sake, to share in the "gift of life", or some other nonsense.
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k

    So reproduction is necessary to take care of the elderly? It seems that would just increase the cycle and make a bad thing worse. You increase the problem as you try to solve it. Also, wouldn't this be a primary example of using people for the ends of others?

    Our being born wasn't our acts -- it was much more our mothers' acts. Had you been in charge, you would have started out by holding your breath, thus sparing yourself this whole dreary business. We had absolutely nothing to do with our conceptions, either. Nor did we have anything to do with the long line of predecessors, going back 3 or 4 billion years.Bitter Crank

    It is a political act for the parent, not us. That was my point. It is the ultimate "yay" to life/society. It is saying this is good to have another being live it through to their death.
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k
    Is eating a political act? When I eat food to nourish my body and end my hunger, am I voting YES! for my continued embodiment?Inyenzi

    Not comparable, eating and reproduction. Eating is a necessity, reproduction is voluntary. @Bitter Crank should know that too. It is not a default. Not since the time we knew how reproduction works.

    I think it's more mindless than that (i.e. I'm hungry, I eat, and by consequence my embodiment sustains), and it's the same mindlessness with reproduction. This type of rational, deliberate sort of reproduction you describe where people sit down with their partners and decide to bring a child into the world would be very rare if not non-existent. For the vast majority of the planet, (to put it very crudely), people fuck and then babies happen, and by consequence the human species and it's suffering proliferates itself.Inyenzi

    Granted that may be the case. Knowing the consequence, accepting it, and allowing the child to term is a political stance then. Pro-life in more than one way.

    Is rabbit reproduction a political act?Inyenzi

    Again, not comparable. We do things by way of cultural institutions, things that require society and volitional acts of individuals making decisions.

    But even in the case of the rational, deliberate parents to be, their motivations for having the child are far more likely to be related to some sort of end or aim of their own, than for the sake of the non-existent yet-to-be (can you even do something for the sake of a nothing?). For example: because of pressure from parents, because it's what's expected of you once you cohabit or marry, because you think it will strengthen your marriage, because you think babies are cute and want one, because you want something to depend on you, because you have a drive to nurture and want to satisfy that drive, because all your friends are having children and you feel left out, because you don't want to be old and alone with nobody to care for you, because you feel it's an essential part of being a woman, etc. Ends and aims like these are what hide in the background, being the true motivators for the 'rational parents' reproduction, who then retrospectively claim he/she brought the child into the world for it's own sake, to share in the "gift of life", or some other nonsense.Inyenzi

    Agreed to an extent. This just means people have to be more thoughtful in decisions they make that effect, quite literally, future people. However, even if it is for the self, it is still an affirmation, a statement that, "yes, I agree there should be something in the future that should live life" and is assenting to the community. It need not be knowingly, but they are making a statement that life is something that should be carried out and that the society should continue. An analogy might be someone who wants health care provided by the state because he can't afford it. He may not be saying directly, "I affirm the idea of government healthcare", but his actions de facto agree with the idea, lest it be a contradiction.
  • BC
    13.5k
    Remember my support for antinatalism is practical, not philosophical. I don't expect life to be without suffering; painless; always interesting; daily refreshing; exciting; valuable; and so on. My hope is to reduce the number of living beings to something closer to what a finite planet can support well. 7.5, 8, 9, 10, 12... billion is too many. I'll pick a number, 2.5 billion -- the population of 1950.

    Getting to 6 billion, 5 billion, 4 or 3 billion will be NO PICNIC. It will involve huge economic, social, religious, military, agricultural disruptions as populations diminish. There will be inverted distributions of population for generations. It will take a sustained cross generational effort to achieve a non-coercive, non-catastrophic population decline. (I suppose we could wipe out half the population if we really worked at it, but then you have other kinds of disruption, and most likely billions of pissed off, bitter, and resentful survivors.)
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k

    Politics are also about making existential statements. Conservatives and libertarians might consider voting for a conservative legislator or executive because they see unfettered free markets and minimal government intervention as existentially good for the community and for its own sake as being part of what it means to be a “free” society. Liberals might consider voting for a liberal legislator or executive because they see government programs as fundamental to a flourishing community and that possibly, as social animals the community must intervene we are private sectors can’t. They might think government intervention as existentially good for the community and for its own sake as being part of what it means to be a flourishing human. In other words, politics is hand-in-hand with existential statements about life, the community, and human destiny, even if people don’t recognize it as such.
  • BC
    13.5k
    In other words, politics is hand-in-hand with existential statements about life, the community, and human destiny, even if people don’t recognize it as such.schopenhauer1

    Absolutely.

    It is the ultimate "yay" to life/society.schopenhauer1

    It's like when somebody offers the platitude, "It's a great day to be alive!" I always respond with "Let's not get carried away with enthusiasm."

    So, "Yay", but no standing ovations please.
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k
    Would you have movie nights, pot luck meals, board game and card parties, sing-alongs, dances...? What anti-fertility holidays would you celebrate--Artemis, Athena, and Hestia? Mary was ever virgin but she did reproduce -- though with suspiciously unorthodox methods. Christmas? Jesus didn't reproduce, as far as we know. Dionysius would be a good male god -- I don't think he reproduced, but he did like a wild party (he is also know under the name of Bacchus, he with wine and grapes.) He had a rather unorthodox birth, too -- his mother Semele was zapped while he was in utero, so Zeus sewed up the baby Dionysius in his thigh to finish developing. (Don't try it at home.)Bitter Crank

    Those are all good ideas :D. Bake sales would be included. Philosophical pessimism can be sexy, ironically. I bet you are imagining a pp meeting to be like an old school Quaker service. There would be a sparsely furnished simple wooden hall, with two rows of chairs facing each other. Everyone would be silent and sullen. When someone gets moved by the "spirit of pessimism", they can stand up and voice their negative thought about life. This goes on for as long as it takes. Then, chanting in the style of groans and moans takes place regarding the cruel existential absurdity.

    Or, as you say, there are movie nights regarding pessimistic themes, book discussions, therapy-type sessions, sharing of views, and outreach events :D. Like socialism, we would get organized. We would make a platform for what we stand for.
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k

    Long story short, it is wrong to create a state of affairs where you would be creating the burdens of existence for a new person. The consolation of "life has good things in it" does not compensate for creating the burdens.

    Strategies:
    Embrace the tormentor: Nietzsche, Stoics, Sisyphus smiling, "well-adjusted" citizen, Golden Mean, Aristotle, etc.

    Rebel/Turn Away: Schopenhauer, Ascetics, Philosophical Pessimists, antinatalists, etc.
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.5k
    I think creating a new child is endorsing the world as it is.

    That means endorsing the good and bad things. You are exposing your child to all the dynamics and perils of life including their certain death.

    The world is easily shown to be not good enough especially historically by looking at levels of inequality, war, famine, genocide, physical and mental illness which challenges any claim that life is more good than bad.

    It is hard to have a child that does not become involved in the exploitation and inequality and natural lottery of health and well being. Ironically increased personal prosperity has come at the price as being more deeply able to exploit others at a great distance.

    But rational discussion of procreation and parenting is not encouraged so I imagine it is easy to bypass reason when indulging in ones reproductive desires.

    I think parents have the primary responsibility to make the world better at the very least for the sake of their children and their children are less likely to thrive if they live surrounded by inequality, exploitation and suffering.
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