2-Your eternal salvation or damnation depends on your religious beliefs. — Empedocles
But if, like you imply, no one asks for mercy if they don't believe, it seems like belief is a prerequisite to repentance, so the problem is still one's beliefs. But maybe I'm not understanding correctly? — Empedocles
I’ve been thinking there’s a problem with Christianity’s doctrine of salvation (soteriology). — Empedocles
Therefore, this soteriological system is unjust — Empedocles
Jews, Christians, Moslems, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Jains, etc. have been busy trying to explain/defend/make sense of their religions for a long time.
Man is the author of the Gods. Our Gods generally demand a great deal more of humans than we feel like delivering on most days, so we disappoint our gods. We have to find a way to get around the problem of disappointing, angering, and enraging our various gods, less they smite us. How can our created gods harm us? Of course they can't, but bad things are always happening -- fire, wind, earthquakes, boils, itchy skin, tumors, stinging wasps, snakes, poisonous algae, ponzi schemers, lions, communists, radiation leaks, rats... there are a lot of things out there waiting to get at us, and periodically succeed. We can charge all these bad things to our Gods' accounts.
I found it liberating to just stop thinking about it from the POV that I was liable to eternal damnation--or heaven, either.
BTW, I think creating gods was a major (the major?) cultural achievement of either the very early modern period or the very late stone age period -- around 20,000-30,000 years ago, give or take 15 minutes. — Bitter Crank
1- God created people in such a way that they would sin, and he created a system of salvation wherein sinners are damned (and the sacrifice of Jesus saves only a fraction of them).
2- If God created people and his system of salvation in this way, then he is unjust
3- God did create people and His salvation system in this way
4- Therefore, He is unjust (1,2 MP) — Empedocles
First of all, premise 1a assumes that “God created people in such a way that they would sin.” This is indicating that God has created human beings who are prone to sin rather than not to sin. It is assuming that sinning is a behavior that God has programmed into every human at the time of creation; since it is forced onto human beings, sinning is not a choice but an inevitable consequence of God’s creation of the humankind. If someone were to ask: why do human beings sin, the answer in such context would be: because God made them to. This seems wrong to the mainstream Christian beliefs. God created human beings with free will, so that they are free to make choices of their own behaviors. To sin or not to sin are two choices with an equal chance of being selected by each individual before temptations. Either sinning is a choice by each human being, or God did not create human with free will. In the Christian belief, God has created human beings with free will, thus sinning is a choice out of free will rather than a behavior God has programmed into every human. — CYU-5
The following is what I see as the real problem. First, God knew that he was creating beings with a free will. Second, he knew that people would use that free will to reject him. Third, he knew that most people would reject him, or at least a billions would reject him. It would also seem to follow from this, that if God knew, for example, that creating Hitler would result in the murder of millions of people, then God is responsible for that evil. He is just as guilty as if he did it himself. For example, if I create a robot with a free will, knowing that that robot would murder people, then you would be within your right to charge me with murder. So either something is wrong with the doctrine you are proposing, or something is wrong with the concepts, or it's just incoherent. It's probably all three. — Sam26
Basically just another restatement of the argument from evil. The theist response is compensating goods. A moral God can allow evil if there is a compensating good. A compensating good must be much better than the evil, and the compensating good can not be possible without the evil. A theist would claim that our free will is such a compensating good. — Rank Amateur
First of all, premise 1a assumes that “God created people in such a way that they would sin.” This is indicating that God has created human beings who are prone to sin rather than not to sin. It is assuming that sinning is a behavior that God has programmed into every human at the time of creation; since it is forced onto human beings, sinning is not a choice but an inevitable consequence of God’s creation of the humankind. If someone were to ask: why do human beings sin, the answer in such context would be: because God made them to. This seems wrong to the mainstream Christian beliefs. God created human beings with free will, so that they are free to make choices of their own behaviors. To sin or not to sin are two choices with an equal chance of being selected by each individual before temptations. Either sinning is a choice by each human being, or God did not create human with free will. In the Christian belief, God has created human beings with free will, thus sinning is a choice out of free will rather than a behavior God has programmed into every human.
My argument is as follows:
1. The Christian God is maximally good and loving.
2. If God’s salvation exists, either humans have a degree of choice in their salvation or their eternity has been predestined by God
3. If eternity is predetermined by God, some people have been damned to Hell irrespective of their lives and choices on Earth
4. Damning people to Hell (such that they could not have avoided it) is evil
5. Therefore, predestination is evil.
6. Therefore, either salvation is evil, or humans have a degree of choice in their salvation. — tenderfoot
I would love to hear some thoughts on the necessity of obtaining salvation after death for the compatibility of Hell with a maximally good God and human free will! — tenderfoot
I would love to hear some thoughts on the necessity of obtaining salvation after death for the compatibility of Hell with a maximally good God and human free will!
Continuing off the arguments of previous posts that salvation, based on reformed, double predestination doctrine presents a view of Hell that is incompatible with a good, loving God,
My argument is as follows:
1. The Christian God is maximally good and loving.
2. If God’s salvation exists, either humans have a degree of choice in their salvation or their eternity has been predestined by God
3. If eternity is predetermined by God, some people have been damned to Hell irrespective of their lives and choices on Earth
4. Damning people to Hell (such that they could not have avoided it) is evil
5. Therefore, predestination is evil.
6. Therefore, either salvation is evil, or humans have a degree of choice in their salvation.
To protect salvation and maintain an all-good God who has created salvation for all who may accept it, it seems necessary that all human beings have a real chance to know of God’s existence and choose God. As the nature of our world is, there are certainly people who never learn about the Christian God or doctrine of salvation before their death (see comment https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/217169)
I would like to argue for the existence of some “step” after one’s life on Earth and before Heaven/ Hell in which all human beings have the opportunity to choose Jesus as their Lord. If there is a chance to choose God after death, then salvation is not evil and God in fact it is maximally good, just, and merciful (because eternal communion with God is offered to all who may choose it!) This maintains human free will and the choice to love God (it is not compulsory) while still allowing those who seek goodness in this world to find the omnibenevolent God, regardless of their knowledge of Him in the physical, temporal world. Without this step, I don’t see a way to reconcile the unequal access to God on this Earth with eternal damnation. If that were the case, it seems that salvation is tinged with evil in a way humans cannot defend without appealing to “God’s plan being too wonderful to understand.”
I would love to hear some feedback on this! :)
It just doesn’t seem morally permissible for God to base someone’s eternal destiny on whether they believe in Jesus and accept His sacrifice for them — Empedocles
It was a mistake for Christianity to adopt the 'believe in Jesus else eternal damnation!' message. Not well thought through; they have left 2000 years of theologians wriggling uncomfortably around the defence of the indefensible: eternal damnation for ignorance. — Devans99
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