Logical facts about one proposition implying another obtain lexicographically and (it seems to me, and so I'll suggest it) tautologically.

An example is the fact: "There is no proposition that is both true and false."

...which means: "A proposition that's not true isn't true."

...or "If a proposition isn't true, then it isn't true."

...which is an obvious tautology.

In one earlier argument in an earlier thread, someone said that all (true) theorems* are tautologies, because they all merely show that one thing implies something else--means something else, as is the case with obvious tautological syllogisms like my Slitheytoves syllogism example.

*A true theorem is an implication whose antecedent consists, at least in part, of a set of mathematical axioms.

So the obtaining of an abstract logical implication is there, intrinsic in the implication itself, because one fact [the consequent] is there in another fact [the antecedent]

But yes, of course that's really a simplification, because often the implication of a consequent is by a chain of, or inter-related, inter-referring system of, separate implications. But that doesn't change the intrinsic truism-nature of the obtaining of an abstract fact or system of them.

So there isn't a metaphysical problem about the meaning of, or the how of, the obtaining of abstract facts.

Michael Ossipoff

So there isn't a metaphysical problem about the meaning of, or the how of, the obtaining of abstract facts. — Michael Ossipoff

Yes, that's true. I wonder how can it be addressed?

Any thoughts?

What do facts obtain?

They're status of facthood.

That framework presupposes that a thing is not a fact unless and/or until it somehow gains it's status of being so(unless, and/or until it obtains).

What is the thing that has yet to have become a fact... beforehand?

I may be completely mistaken, for I do not find the notion of facts obtaining to be very helpful...

However, it seems to me that statements obtain truth(and thus become fact) if and only if they correspond to reality/events/states of affairs/the ay things are/were.

Yes, what is it?

There are contingent facts, i.e., a certain state-of-affairs that does not exist now, but may exist in the proper setting. For example, there is no mug on my coffee table at the present moment, but now there is, so the fact obtained based on me putting the mug on the table, among other things. There are a whole range of facts from physical facts, metaphysical facts, to logical facts, and how they obtain varies, some are necessary features of reality, so they do not obtain in the same way, if they obtain at all.

By the way, one of the definitions of a fact is, a state-of-affairs which obtains.

There are a whole range of facts from physical facts, metaphysical facts, to logical facts, and how they obtain varies, some are a necessary feature of reality, so they do not obtain in the same way, if they obtain at all. — Sam26

What does this mean? Is the status of facthood obtained by what?

By the way, one of the definitions of a fact is, a state-of-affairs which obtains. — Sam26

Obtains by what?

What is the thing that has yet to have become a fact... beforehand? — creativesoul

Yes, what is it? — Posty McPostface

I'm just trying to make sure that we are on the same page, so to speak...

Are you asking me to answer the question I posed to you?

What does this mean? Is the status of facthood obtained by what? — Posty McPostface

Facts are simply states-of-affairs, and there are different kinds of states, viz., brain states, physical states, abstract states, contingent states, and necessary states, to name a few. So a fact about my apartment would have to do with the arrangement of things, at least partly, in my apartment. How many bedrooms or bathrooms is a fact about the apartment. If we talk about a fact obtaining, then partly we're talking about the existence of those states-of-affairs. If the state exists, then the fact obtains.

There are contingent facts, i.e., a certain state-of-affairs that do not exist now, but may exist in the proper setting. For example, there is no mug on my coffee table at the present moment, but now there is, so the fact obtained based on me putting the mug on the table, among other things. There are a whole range of facts from physical facts, metaphysical facts, to logical facts, and how they obtain varies, some are a necessary feature of reality, so they do not obtain in the same way, if they obtain at all. — Sam26

Same question to you Sam...

What do facts obtain?

To say that a fact obtains is just another way of saying the fact exists, or the state-of-affairs exists.

Are you asking me to answer the question I posed to you? — creativesoul

If that's how you see things, then go for it.

So what is it before it obtains?

Are you asking me to answer the question I posed to you?
— creativesoul

If that's how you see things, then go for it. — Posty McPostface

I do not normally employ such a framework. So, I'm here to consider it...

It's a paradox, no?

So what is it before it obtains? — creativesoul

Simply its possibility, i.e., if it's contingent.

It's a paradox, no? — Posty McPostface

Perhaps. Show me what you mean...

There are possible states-of-affairs. For example, it's possible that the Earth could have two moons. It's contingent.

Simply its possibility, i.e., if it's contingent. — Sam26

Modality then? Possible worlds semantics?

Show me what you mean... — creativesoul

That we obtain facts from things it presupposes that there is something more to the world we see.

That we obtain facts from things it presupposes that there is something more to the world we see. — Posty McPostface

I don't think so. I mean the discussion has been about "facts obtaining" and what that means. How do you get from there to us obtaining facts?

I'm trying to elucidate the part with the paradoxical obtaining of a state of affairs is mystical in some sense?

Modality then? Possible worlds semantics? — creativesoul

Well, possible worlds goes beyond what I'm saying, but that too is a possible contingent fact. However, there are some contingent facts that never obtain.

I'm trying to elucidate the part with the paradoxical obtaining of a state of affairs is mystical in some sense? — Posty McPostface

Remember that just because something is possible that doesn't mean that it is so.

However, there are some contingent facts that never obtain. — Sam26

So they're facts(considered states of affairs) regardless of whether or not they exist?

It's a negative fact, as opposed to a positive fact, or one that obtains.

I'm trying to elucidate the part with the paradoxical obtaining of a state of affairs is mystical in some sense? — Posty McPostface

Well, it seems inherently inadequate and/or otherwise mistaken to me intuitively... We'll see.