Then, there's no need to speak of a fact "obtaining", which would be redundant, because there's no such thing as a non-obtaining fact. — Michael Ossipoff
"Then, there's no need to speak of a fact "obtaining", which would be redundant, because there's no such thing as a non-obtaining fact". — Michael Ossipoff
The Principle of Bipolarity would contradict this conclusion. — Posty McPostface
"A fact is that which is represented by a true proposition." — aletheist
What about a false proposition? Is that possible for a fact to represent a false proposition? — Posty McPostface
This is backwards; a fact does not represent anything. A true proposition represents a fact; a false proposition purports to represent a fact, but does not really do so.What about a false proposition? Is that possible for a fact to represent a false proposition? — Posty McPostface
No, a proposition is a sign that purports to represent a fact.A false proposition is still a thing that purports to be a fact. — Michael Ossipoff
So, facts are immune to the Principle of Bipolarity? — Posty McPostface
A false proposition is still a thing that purports to be a fact. — Michael Ossipoff
No, a proposition is a sign that purports to represent a fact. — aletheist
No, a fact is a real state of affairs, which a true proposition represents.A fact represents a state of affairs, no? — Posty McPostface
By that definition, I suppose so. I was mostly emphasizing that a proposition purports to represent a fact, rather than to be a fact.Alright, but isn't a sign a thing? I define things are what are describable and can be referred to. — Michael Ossipoff
The real is that which is as it is regardless of what anyone thinks about it. Consider these three propositions.What's a "real state of affairs'? — Posty McPostface
Facts are independent of any individual mind or finite collection of minds. This does not entail that they are independent of mind in general. If an infinite community were to carry out infinite inquiry, facts are what would be represented in all propositions constituting their consensus beliefs - i.e., the absolute truth.So facts are mind-independent? I thought they were mind-dependent... — Posty McPostface
It is not a fact, it is a proposition; and it is not a true proposition, since it does not refer to a real object - there is no present King of France - so it does not even represent a fact. It merely purports to represent a fact, as all propositions do.The present King of France is bald, is a fact that doesn't correspond to reality. What can you say about that? — Posty McPostface
The present King of France is bald, is a fact that doesn't correspond to reality. What can you say about that>? — Posty McPostface
As it is usually understood, the principle of bipolarity is that every proposition must be capable of being true and capable of being false, which rules out propositions that are necessarily true or necessarily false.
It is not a fact, it is a proposition; and it is not a true proposition, since it does not refer to a real object - there is no present King of France - so it does not even represent a fact. It merely purports to represent a fact, as all propositions do. — aletheist
I don't understand that. If a proposition differs from a fact only by the fact that it might or might not be one, or if a proposition is what purports to be a fact, then there's nothing about that that says that a proposition can't be definitely true or definitely false. ...might definitely be a fact or definitely not be a fact. — Michael Ossipoff
I do not understand this question. Facts are not signs that represent something else; as we established previously, they are real states of affairs. Propositions purport to represent facts, and true propositions really do represent facts.Hence, what do facts represent? — Posty McPostface
The Principle of Bipolarity has to do with propositions, not facts.So, facts are independent of the Principle of Bipolarity? — Posty McPostface
I do not understand this question. Facts are not signs that represent something else; as we established previously, they are real states of affairs. — aletheist
A state of affairs that is not real is not a fact. If I were to have a dream in which I was flying like Superman, it would be a fact that I had the dream, but not that I was flying like Superman.Again, you use 'real' here again. Why is that? — Posty McPostface
No, facts are real states of affairs in the world and do not represent anything else. Propositions purport to represent facts. True propositions really do represent facts. Other kinds of signs represent other aspects of the world, including qualities, things, and habits.Facts represent things in the world. — Posty McPostface
I do not understand this question. Language itself is a system of signs, a means of representation.What's this "representation" thing doing here in language? — Posty McPostface
If I were to have a dream in which I was flying like Superman, it would be a fact that I had the dream, but not that I was flying like Superman. — aletheist
True propositions really do represent facts. — aletheist
Language itself is a system of signs, a means of representation. — aletheist
Yes, it would be a fact that I was flying like Superman in the dream, but not that I was actually flying like Superman.Not true, In the dream, you were flying like superman... — Posty McPostface
True propositions really do represent real states of affairs. Reality is not limited to the actual; there are also possible and necessary states of affairs that are as they are regardless of what anyone thinks about them, even if they never actually come about. For example, this is a true proposition: If I were to drop a stone while standing on the earth, it would fall to the ground.True propositions really do represent the actual state of affairs? Is that more succinct? — Posty McPostface
Whatever you like - states of affairs, qualities, things, habits, etc.Representation of what, then? — Posty McPostface
Yes, it would be a fact that I was flying like Superman in the dream, but not that I was actually flying like Superman. — aletheist
For example, this is a true proposition: If I were to drop a stone while standing on the earth, it would fall to the ground. — aletheist
Whatever you like - states of affairs, qualities, things, habits, etc. — aletheist
Actuality is existence, which is the reaction of things upon one another. If I were to jump off the roof and start flying like Superman, that would be actually flying like Superman. Dreaming about flying like Superman, or imagining that I am flying like Superman, is not actually flying like Superman.What do you mean by "actually" here? — Posty McPostface
I am not familiar enough with it to say for sure. Why should we rule out propositions that are necessarily true or necessarily false? What kind of necessity is relevant? Does this alleged principle only exclude analytic propositions, such as "all bachelors are unmarried" (necessarily true) and "some bachelors are married" (necessarily false)? My example is not in that category.So, what happens to the Principle of Bipolarity? — Posty McPostface
To which specific statement are you referring? Obviously we use language to express propositions, which represent states of affairs.States of affairs sounds right. So, what I said was true? — Posty McPostface
Dreaming about flying like Superman, or imagining that I am flying like Superman, is not actually flying like Superman. — aletheist
Does this alleged principle only exclude analytic propositions, such as "all bachelors are unmarried" (necessarily true) and "some bachelors are married" (necessarily false)? — aletheist
Obviously we use language to express propositions, which represent states of affairs. — aletheist
How do facts obtain? — Posty McPostface
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.