I appreciate - it's not much fun being poor in a capitalist economy - but that's why one has to develop skills, or specialist knowledge - required by the market. — karl stone
Except that in a "more is better" knowledge economy characterized by accelerating social and technological change, whatever skills you develop are likely to go out of date before you're done needing them. As example, I just watched a documentary showing how robots are taking over many surgical tasks. It's not just factory workers who are at risk.
What this accelerating change does is infuse the society with considerable uncertainty, which generates fear, which eventually leads to masses of people doing stupid things like voting for President Dumpster. Dangerous wing wackos are rising to power all over the world, which illustrates that at least some of the forces at play are global, and not the result of local conditions.
Some of us will be able to develop skills that aren't quickly made obsolete by the market, that's true. That doesn't matter if large numbers of other people can't keep up, and thus become susceptible to persuasion by crackpot ideologues promising to "make America great again". Example, some of us are indeed thriving in this economy, while those who aren't thriving give us a leader who pulls us out of the Paris Agreement, humanity's best hope to avoid catastrophic climate change. — Jake
Using reason to examine and challenge the "more is better" group consensus to see if it can withstand scrutiny. — Jake
if we are to survive, we have to get there from here - and harnessing capitalist forces is indispensable to any possible solution to our problems. — karl stone
But I would argue that by correcting the mistake we made way back when, we can multiply resources exponentially - tackle climate change and alleviate those fears. — karl stone
Well, more philosophy, more reason, more cooperation, more knowledge, less greed, less competition, less material accumulation. That sounds like a plan. — unenlightened
The world is becoming an increasingly scary place as we progress down the wrong path — karl stone
I can go along with that. But with the emphasis on a good robust harness. At the moment, capitalist forces are at the wrong end of the harness - in the driving seat. — unenlightened
Pain is not transformative; it's not even much of an aid to learning. — unenlightened
I'm trying to describe an opportunity - not a diet regime, or a prison sentence. — karl stone
I'm trying to explain that we don't have to back down, have less, go vegan - and see everything fall apart anyway, only slightly less rapidly. — karl stone
Science culture tells us that things can get better, better and better, faster, faster and faster. — Jake
I don't think it does. That sounds more like politics. — unenlightened
The wrong path is changing the environment we inhabit faster than human beings can adapt to that environment. If you can reflect on this a bit, I think you will see this premise is actually not in conflict with your own premise. You feel we must align ourselves with reality or we will perish, for this is the law of nature. I agree with that. — Jake
The problem, as seen from here, is that the group consensus you are speaking on behalf of doesn't have a very sophisticated understanding of reality, specifically human reality. You observe the landscape and see a technical problem, because you like technical challenges. But fundamentally what we face is not a technical problem, but a human problem. Unlimited free clean energy would simply empower us to do more of the stupid stuff we are already doing. — Jake
The next problem, as seen from here, is that the group consensus has shifted the blind faith we used to have in religious clerics in to a blind faith in what I call the "science clergy". The obstacle here is that while scientists are indeed expert in the technical aspects of reality, they are really no better at understanding the human reality than any of the rest of us. And, the human reality is a very important component of the reality equation. Nor does science culture have a superior understanding of reason, given that they are still selling us an outdated "more is better" paradigm from the 19th century in spite of clear compelling evidence (thousands of hydrogen bombs) that we simply aren't ready for more and more power without limit. You can blame the weapons on religion or politicians or whoever you want, but the REALITY is that they exist, and we don't know how to get rid of them. And that "we" includes the science clergy. — Jake
Thus, blind faith in science or scientists is not warranted, just as it wasn't warranted in regards to religious clerics. — Jake
More or less, but I don't agree we are unable to adapt quickly enough. — karl stone
You're saying that scientists are at the same time myopic specialists with a somewhat stereotypical lack of knowledge of the real world - and also the salesmen of a more is better paradigm? — karl stone
Something you've said 20 times already - without taking on board a single devastating criticism offered by anyone else. — karl stone
Praxis showed there's no adult in the room to govern we so called children. — karl stone
I've put it to you that, because people have needs and wants - there's no stopping progress, yet here we are again. — karl stone
Talking about your ideas to the exclusion of my own. — karl stone
Science isn't about faith - it's precisely the opposite. — karl stone
But you don't even understand this. — karl stone
I'm trying to describe an opportunity - not a diet regime, or a prison sentence.
— karl stone
— unenlightened
Less meat is not vegan, wearing a sweater is not a prison sentence. — unenlightened
You have to have a car, because you have to live a long way from work because you don't get paid enough to afford to live where the work is and public transport is revolting and even more expensive than a car. So you contribute to the pollution that makes the city air so poisonous that you have to have an inhaler to survive in it. The travel time on congested roads and work leaves you neither time nor energy to cook your own food, so you have to eat prepackaged ready meals or takeaways, and so cannot properly control your own diet. So you have to buy supplement pills. — unenlightened
And you are so browbeaten by the propaganda you are subjected to day and night that you think this is freedom, and a healthy and contented existence a prison sentence. — unenlightened
Nor does science culture have a superior understanding of reason, given that they are still selling us an outdated "more is better" paradigm from the 19th century in spite of clear compelling evidence (thousands of hydrogen bombs) that we simply aren't ready for more and more power without limit. — Jake
We have thousands of hair trigger hydrogen bombs aimed down our own throat. Do you consider this a successful adaptation which increases our chances of survival? — Jake
Yes, that's it, you get it now. To be more precise, they (as a group) have a lack of knowledge about the HUMAN reality, just as you do. The "more is better" paradigm assumes that humans can successfully manage any power which arises out of that process, irregardless of what rate that power emerges. That's simply false. Knowledge can be developed faster than maturity. The mismatch between these two rates is dangerous. That's simply true. — Jake
There have been no devastating criticisms. I understand this particular issue (not all issues!) better than the rest of you. Sorry, not trying to be insulting, just providing a reality check.
Praxis showed there's no adult in the room to govern we so called children.
— karl stone
Praxis showed he has no interest in trying to meet that challenge, because he's not actually interested in this subject at all. As is his right. — Jake
Yes, and one of our "needs and wants" is for a stable civilization which can well serve our descendants, instead of blowing up in our face due to arrogance, greed, and philosophical stubbornness. — Jake
I think it's a reasonable criticism to take on board and address in relation to my own ideas. It's entirely central to my plan that political and capitalist economic interests see the advantages in this approach - and adopt it voluntarily. There are vast potential benefits unlocked by recognizing the relation between the validity of the knowledge bases of action and the consequences of such action. i.e. knowing what's true and doing what's right - and it's important they do not feel it's a threat to the bottom line - else it just won't happen. — karl stone
Have you heard of the ocean cleanup project? (https://www.theoceancleanup.com)
I think it's at least partly funded by recycling, but in any case, I believe it's a relatively low cost and high benefit solution. — praxis
The Amish: The group consensus keeps saying that modifying "more is better" is impossible, while blatantly ignoring the real world evidence that some among us have already long ago done so, and continue to do so successfully. While it's very unlikely that we'll all become Amish, what the Amish have proven is that it's possible to have fulfilling human lives without totally surrendering to the dangerous pursuit of more and more and more without limit. — Jake
So you think 7 billion people are all going to get into farming - do you? Sit around singing cum-by-yar while waiting on a giant pot of lentils to cook by the heat of a beeswax candle? — karl stone
Argument by ridicule is a really pathetic, short-sighted tactic. Please just stop. You are talking to concerned serious and intelligent people who are at bottom your allies. Stop being a prat. — unenlightened
Maybe taking the piss is the only strategy left to me - did you think of that? — karl stone
Maybe taking the piss is the only strategy left to me - did you think of that?
— karl stone
Yes, that's exactly what it looks like. — unenlightened
I am at having to address his doom mongering nonsense over and over and over and over... — karl stone
To be fair, the doom part isn’t nonsensical. The alleged cause and hint of a solution is. Anyway, for what it’s worth, I’m glad there are people like you thinking of solutions. And on that note I’ll take my leave of the topic. Sorry if I’ve muddied the water by engaging the nonsense. — praxis
Argument by ridicule is a really pathetic, short-sighted tactic. — unenlightened
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.