Resistance to resistance may be futile, since we actually want it as much or even more than we hate it. Most of us are sufficiently invested in life so that suicide is not a 'living' issue and that instead concrete situations are our living issues. Philosophy does give us wise rules-of-thumb (reminds for particular purposes) and an overall orientation in existence. — macrosoft

Suicide is always futile. It's an idealistic dream world. I'm surprised so many people find it comforting when the uncertainty of existence points the other way. I would want to live forever, not erase myself. Such are the pangs of existence, yes; but, suicide is too big of a leap to overcome via rationality. I heard that suicide is done either by passion or cold analysis. I can't fathom what kind of analysis must operate to lead to such a conclusion. Time to eat something then. That's simpler and easier to obtain rather than eternal bliss in a never-ending dream.

Suicide is always futile. It's an idealistic dream world. I'm surprised so many people find it comforting when the uncertainty of existence points the other way. I would want to live forever, not erase myself. Such are the pangs of existence, yes; but, suicide is too big of a leap to overcome via rationality. I heard that suicide is done either by passion or cold analysis. I can't fathom what kind of analysis must operate to lead to such a conclusion. Time to eat something then. That's simpler and easier to obtain rather than eternal bliss in a never-ending dream. — Posty McPostface

I've contemplated suicide before. It is the coldest calculation imaginable. It is truly arctic, terrifyingly arctic.

I've known impressive, charismatic people to take that path. I think they felt a strong urge toward purity. They therefore saw the world as a place full of filth and futility. And they saw themselves as a rooms that would always be messy. I personally think death is an escape from all pain. But the price to be paid for that escape is all pleasure --and all everything.

And of course it hurts the people that love you. That alone can keep it from actually happening. You may really want it, but still care enough about others to not be selfish that way.

I've contemplated suicide before. It is the coldest calculation imaginable. It is truly arctic, terrifyingly arctic. — macrosoft

If one takes one'self seriously enough, then it's not so unimaginable. But, still. It takes some guts to pull the trigger. Can one face the prospect of suicide with a straight face? I don't know.

But, back to the topic. Why don't more people realize that resistance against resistance is futile?

BTW, do you believe in the simulation hypothesis of reality?

Can one face the prospect of suicide with a straight face? I don't know. — Posty McPostface

People can and do. And it is a form of overcoming resistance. They leap 'over' the fear of death into the 'truth.'

Why don't more people realize that resistance against resistance is futile? — Posty McPostface

I'd say most people never even think about it so abstractly.

BTW, do you believe in the simulation hypothesis of reality? — Posty McPostface

Hmmm. Given my 'meaning holism,' I'm likely to see it as just a new name for reality.

Q: So you think this reality is all a simulation?
A: Yes.
Q: So you are naturally not afraid to eat poison and walk into traffic?
A: Errr. Well. No I wouldn't eat poison or walk into traffic.

In short, something-like-reality is a shared sense of what constrains our 'freedom.' Let's say I decide that reality is a simulation and it doesn't change my behavior in the least. What, then, have I really decided?

I'd say most people never even think about it so abstractly. — macrosoft

Why not? If one commits oneself to the prospect of eternal bliss that is suicide, then they ought to think about it abstractly.

I'm an avid fan of the simulation hypothesis. It seems as though each person exists on a plane of solitude and loneliness sometimes, maybe even solipsistically. But, the simulation hypothesis renders suicide as futile in-of-itself.

Why not? If one commits oneself to the prospect of eternal bliss that is suicide, then they ought to think about it abstractly. — Posty McPostface

Oh, maybe I misunderstood your question.

Also, I think most people (or most atheists/agnostics) think of death as a neutral absence of experience. Not positive infinity but zero, let's say.

I'm an avid fan of the simulation hypothesis. It seems as though each person exists on a plane of solitude and loneliness sometimes. But, the simulation hypothesis renders suicide as futile in-of-itself. — Posty McPostface

I don't know the details. Can you sketch the hypothesis?

I do think there is an ineradicable 'core' of loneliness as we become unique adults. No one ever 'exactly' gets us.

Also, I think most people (or most atheists/agnostics) think of death as a neutral absence of experience. — macrosoft

Indeed. That's true. But, after all, resistance is futile in the case of suicide.

I don't know the details. Can you sketch the hypothesis? — macrosoft

It's easy. Think of it analogously to our current computer landscape or plane of existence. Given a sufficiently complex enough computer, that isn't limited by physics to simulate reality, we occupy a plane of existence that is analogous to a simulation in hyper-reality that is the state space of a computer.

Should I go on?

Indeed. That's true. But, after all, resistance is futile in the case of suicide. — Posty McPostface

Not to cause a suicide wave, but I do think suicide solves the problem. It's just an awfully expensive solution. I have friends who killed themselves via direct suicide and also with heroin needles (maybe not intending to die but playing with something with well known dangers.) Am I wiser and better than them? I don't know. I'm here to think about it. They aren't. I will join them in the grave at some point.

Life is a mystery. Death is a mystery. Or maybe I really do have faith in death as nothingness, so it's less of a mystery than life. I'd rather be alive just now. I know/feel that. At some point (when this body is sufficiently broken) I will probably prefer to be dead. In the meantime I try to amuse myself and treat people well, especially those who treat me well.

But, wasn't their loss tragic in some sense? I would hate to leave more pain behind than happiness and such.

But, wasn't their loss tragic in some sense? I would hate to leave more pain behind than happiness and such. — Posty McPostface

Sure. It was tragic. But having been in some very dark states of mind, I understood it too well to feel judgmental. The suicidal person feels like a disease. So they think they are doing good by doing away with themselves. They feel the guilt of being an individual, the guilt of entanglement. And even being loved is part of the entanglement. In a certain state of mind, being loved is terrifying. The fantasy is to be in a place without the 'guilt' (debt, responsibility) that comes with mattering.

Usually the psyche involved is aware of too many contradictions. Reality is cracked through the center of their soul. They want opposite things, and it is hell, like being torn apart. And they 'see' that it is their own nature that is their hell. They are their own prisons. They don't have the comforting illusion that the problem is outside them.

Sure. It was tragic. But having been in some very dark states of mind, I understood it too well to feel judgmental. The suicidal person feels like a disease. So they think they are doing good by doing away with themselves. They feel the guilt of being an individual, the guilt of entanglement. And even being loved is part of the entanglement. In a certain state of mind, being loved is terrifying. The fantasy is to be in a place without the 'guilt' that comes with mattering. — macrosoft

Profound. I guess we're delving too deeply into the topic when things start sounding profound.

Usually the psyche involved is aware of too many contradictions. Reality is cracked through the center of their soul. They want opposite things, and it is hell, like being torn apart. And they 'see' that it is their own nature that is their hell. They are their own prisons. They don't have the comforting illusion that the problem is outside them. — macrosoft

I see you added this. I don't know what to think about suicide. If one believes in unrestrained individualism, then so be it?

Profound. I guess we're delving too deeply into the topic when things start sounding profound. — Posty McPostface

Maybe. I've always been comfortable in all of this deep stuff and bored when things are just cutesy small-talk. So people come to me sometimes when they are desperate. I'm a good friend for heavy conversations, but maybe not much fun when frivolity is called for.

Maybe. I've always been comfortable in all of this deep stuff and bored when things are just cutesy small-talk. So people come to me sometimes when they are desperate. I'm a good friend for heavy conversations, but maybe not much fun when frivolity is called for. — macrosoft

I'm an advocate for philosophical quietism, despite my rampage of posts. I don't know what to think about 'profoundness'. It seems like lipstick on already red lips.

I see you added this. I don't know what to think about suicide. If one believes in unrestrained individualism, then so be it? — Posty McPostface

I'm just trying to paint how they see it, or at least how I've seen it.

When it comes to suicide, the political question seems unimportant to me. Because you can't stop it, and a successful suicide transcends all law enforcement and whatever people will say about it. It leaps into the 'truth.' That's part of its allure. Death is transcendent.

I'm just trying to paint how they see it, or at least how I've seen it.

When it comes to suicide, the political question seems unimportant to me. Because you can't stop it, and a successful suicide transcends all law enforcement and whatever people will say about it. It leaps into the 'truth.' That's part of its allure. Death is transcendent. — macrosoft

Don't you find the prospect of suicide, as a no win game? I mean, there's nothing to be gained at the end of the day, when one thinks too seriously about suicide. It's just another act of 'resistance' from futility.

I'm an advocate for philosophical quietism, despite my rampage of posts. I don't know what to think about 'profoundness'. It seems like lipstick on already red lips. — Posty McPostface

I can relate to any ambivalence. But I guess for me it's a form of stimulation. I need 'hard' conversation, risky conversation, heavy conversation. It's clear to me though that I am tuned so that I am on one side of the spectrum. Don't get me wrong. I'm pretty good at playing the usual games. I'm a charming extrovert when I have to be. But 'really' I am a creature of solitude and heavy thoughts.

I can relate to any ambivalence. But I guess for me it's a form of stimulation. I need 'hard' conversation, risky conversation, heavy conversation. It's clear to me though that I am tuned so that I am on one side of the spectrum. Don't get me wrong. I'm pretty good at playing the usual games. I'm a charming extrovert when I have to be. But 'really' I am a creature of solitude and heavy thoughts. — macrosoft

Cynicism would point out that 'profoundness' is a symptom of a mediocre life. I try and live my life as mediocre as possible though.

Don't you find the prospect of suicide, as a no win game? I mean, there's nothing to be gained at the end of the day, when one thinks too seriously about suicide. It's just another act of 'resistance' from futility. — Posty McPostface

Well I am far from being pro-suicide, but I think that suicide connects to some other profound issues. For instance, is it better to risk your life in a fight when you are being abused or just tolerate the abuse to minimize mortal risk? Should a person tolerate slavery to increase longevity, in other words? Should we prioritize long lives over brave lives?

In short, how does the issue of facing death figure into our broader grasps of existence?

Well I am far from being pro-suicide, but I think that suicide connects to some other profound issues. For instance, is it better to risk your life in a fight when you are being abused? Should a person tolerate slavery to increase longevity? Should we prioritize long lives over brave lives? — macrosoft

The Stoics warranted suicide under strict conditions. Seneca must have welcomed the idea of suicide as salvation from a despotic ruler. As to delineating when suicide is warranted instead of unwarranted could be an interesting topic question.

What do you think?

Cynicism would point out that 'profoundness' is a symptom of a mediocre life. I try and live my life as mediocre as possible though. — Posty McPostface

Surprising. I usually think of profound as something like the opposite of mediocre. The profound is dark, hidden, esoteric. Or it is associated with 'limit' situations that we all face, the birth and death of loved ones, falling in love, conceptual revolutions with which we re-invent ourselves, etc.

Surprising. I usually think of profound as something like the opposite of mediocre. The profound is dark, hidden, esoteric. Or it is associated with 'limit' situations that we all face, the birth and death of loved ones, falling in love, conceptual revolutions with which we re-invent ourselves, etc. — macrosoft

Yes, the Stoics, would have advocated suicide in strict conditions. Such mandates were imposed to prevent the needless loss of life at your very own hands.

The Stoics warranted suicide under strict conditions. Seneca must have welcomed the idea of suicide as salvation from a despotic ruler. As to delineating when suicide is warranted instead of unwarranted could be an interesting topic question.

What do you think? — Posty McPostface

Honestly, for me talk of 'warranted' or not is usually talk that moves into politics and system-making. In my opinion, this 'assumes' a kind of scientific pose toward issues that trivializes them and makes them toys for the intellect or axes-to-grind for 'theoretical' politicians. But I'm biased. To me the manufacture of 'oughts' is not at all interesting. Now what would be interesting in such a discussion would be hidden in the margins, as people illuminated their 'oughts' with personal experience and linked them to their grasp of existence as a whole.

That's true to some degree. I mean how can one eliminate the subjectivity of suicide? The Stoics tried, to great success though.

Had Marcus Aurelius committed suicide, he would have been remembered as a proto-Jesus, above and beyond that of Socrates.