Is The Mind Infinite?

Tzeentch

Good day fellow thinkers,

Yesterday the question I posed in the title of this thread arose in my head and I felt like sharing it with you all. It is in fact a question that I have asked myself on numerous occasions. Now, before we start I'd like to say I understand that infinite is a rather loaded term, but I used it to get us into the proper mindset, for the mind is truly expansive, probably more so than we realize. So I would ask of you not to get stuck on the semantics of the topic, but rather explore with me the possibilities of the mind and philosophize how extraordinary (or not) these possibilities are.

To further get you into the mood, I'll share with you all an example which most of you will probably be able to relate to: dreams. When we dream, we enter a world which knows few boundaries. Anything our minds can think of, may appear to us in dreams. Despite dreams sometimes being strange and nonsensical, we often cannot distinguish between dream and reality until we wake up. In dreams we are not bound by laws of physics. One may even argue that we are not even bound bytime. Have you ever had a dream which seemed to last for hours or even days, only to wake up realizing you were only asleep for fifteen minutes?

Dreams are like living inside your own mind, not being bound by physics and in a sense not even being bound by time. The experiences may reveal themselves to have been an illusion when we wake up, but don't they appear real when we experience them? If you could live forever inside your own mind, a world unbound by science, time and reality, would you do it, and why?

frank

↪Tzeentch

Is mind-time different from real time?

Forgottenticket

The dreams are limited by the energy they are running off. Eventually you will wake up because you need food.

Tzeentch

Is mind-time different from real time? — frank

In my experience it is. I've explained the example of dreams, but there's also the way we experience every day life. Some things are tedious and pass slowly, while other things fly by and you wonder where the time has gone.

The dreams are limited by the energy they are running off. Eventually you will wake up because you need food. — JupiterJess

But how far can we compress time in our mind? Can we experience a week in our minds while only sleeping for an hour? Can we experience a year in a minute?
If we regard this as a form of meditation, one may not need to wake up at all. Monks and sages have passed away whilst meditating. We can only guess where their minds took them and what happened to them after death.

frank

In my experience it is. I've explained the example of dreams, but there's also the way we experience every day life. Some things are tedious and pass slowly, while other things fly by and you wonder where the time has gone. — Tzeentch

I've wondered what this sense of time really is since, as you say, it's somewhat elastic.

Maybe there is an emotional component to the perception of time, space, and velocity.

Nils Loc

The expansiveness of mind is more significant to waking reality.

Everything you can dream can probably be cooked up in some form, even if it is an illusion ( engineered simulation or story in a book).

hks

If there is such a thing as "the mind" then this begs the question Who or What created it?

The First Cause?

This is all a big can of worms.

You are then forced to follow Aquinas down that rabbit hole.

Forgottenticket

But how far can we compress time in our mind? Can we experience a week in our minds while only sleeping for an hour? Can we experience a year in a minute? — Tzeentch

I don't know. It's possible a lot of the time compression stuff are cheap mental tricks. I can obviously imagine more than exists on earth but the mind is still limited by energy. I've tried to live inside my head before, you always need to return back to the waking world after a few hours for food ect.

Tzeentch

If there is such a thing as "the mind" then this begs the question Who or What created it? — hks

That is an interesting question for sure, however it isn't necessary to answer it in order to ponder about the mind.

It's possible a lot of the time compression stuff are cheap mental tricks — JupiterJess

"Cheap" mental tricks or not, if you are experiencing it, isn't it real? If, for a moment, we assume that it's possible to live inside your own mind, doesn't that become your reality? Even so, one could argue that the real world as we know it is also an illusion of the mind, no less than a dream is.

diesynyang

↪Tzeentch

I think our Mind is indeed Finite, not only Finite, but almost the same as a systems it has "Limit" and "Boundaries", that is "If there's no new input, it cannot produce new output" (Example of the Limit is : We Cannot think of another color, or we don't know how to count IF we haven't yet learned it). Like dream, I think (because it's not yet unproven) we can absolutely stay in a Limited Long Period of time. But not "Infinite" because eventually all the "Experience" of that Dream will eventually run out or repeat.

Some thought experiment, Imagine a genius 5 years old kid who lived only with his small family of 3 in a small deserted little cabin in the barren mountain. He knew simple math and simple english, and only exposed to any 5 years old standard experience. Now imagine if 1 night he was dreaming and he can prolong that dream until eternity. What will he dream? Can he dream the sea even though he never saw the sea? Can he dream a pineapple fruit, even though he never saw that fruit, His dream universe will be the same as the universe he once seen. And when all the possibilities are explored and all the data has been used. EIther it will end (black screen?), he wakes up, or everything repeat.

I believe that our mind is finite, our perception is also finite, but we haven't found the maximum potential of our mind, so we can only guess hahaha

Tzeentch

Some thought experiment, Imagine a genius 5 years old kid who lived only with his small family of 3 in a small deserted little cabin in the barren mountain. He knew simple math and simple english, and only exposed to any 5 years old standard experience. Now imagine if 1 night he was dreaming and he can prolong that dream until eternity. What will he dream? Can he dream the sea even though he never saw the sea? Can he dream a pineapple fruit, even though he never saw that fruit, His dream universe will be the same as the universe he once seen. And when all the possibilities are explored and all the data has been used. EIther it will end (black screen?), he wakes up, or everything repeat. — diesynyang

This overlooks the ability of the human mind to create things on its own. Perhaps the child in the example won't imagine specifically a pineapple, but he would be able to imagine many new things given he has a creative and imaginative mind. And given the nature of dreams, these things may be unbound by physics, time or reality. Mathematics must have also appeared out of nothing in the first mathematician's mind. Man's mind creates new things all the time, so what basis does the assumption have that all data will run out someday?

diesynyang

↪Tzeentch

but he would be able to imagine many new things given he has a creative and imaginative mind. And given the nature of dreams, these things may be unbound by physics, time or reality. — Tzeentch

Yes I agree, but even so these "Many things" will in the end limited, imagined if the child never see the color Purple, then even though he can imagined many things, he won't imagine the color purple. Our Mind need Input, that's why people learn, and that's why people in today's time are smarter than the most imaginative people who live in 50CE.

And I think Math doesn't appear out of nothing. I think math started like this. 1 Human have an apple, He then found another apple, and then he think "What is this concept", The first concept of "Adding" and the first concept of "Counting" (Making the Vocabulary of 1 apple as "One") is the start of math. It happen because of a phenomena. Math, the same as another aspect of science, start because of a phenomena that affects human daily life.

I don't think people, who never seen anything, never have an object, basically never do anything, suddenly able to imagine math, without cause. But what do you think : D

Tzeentch

↪diesynyang

Purple is the mix between red and blue. Why would that be unimaginable?
And if math appeared out of there being multiple objects and humans started adding them up, doesn't that mean all an imagination needs is one or more objects to start inventing math on their own?

Anyhow, now we are reasoning from a situation where no outside influences have ever entered the brain, which isn't exactly a situation any mind has ever found itself in.

diesynyang

Purple is the mix between red and blue. Why would that be unimaginable? — Tzeentch

^Well, psychologist today STILL argue that people cannot imagine a color that we haven't yet seen, EVEN IF the color exist (You should search Google, and add something to the debate : D).

that mean all an imagination needs is one or more objects to start inventing math on their own? — Tzeentch

^Mmhmmm, if our mind have the "Input" or "Data" our mind can do epic stuff, a subliminal epic painting can come because we see "A glimpse of Yellow". Think of why advanced math or Quantum physic first come out. We cannot "Imagined" the wonderful characteristic of Light (in quantum physic) without Einstein theory. We cannot "Imagined" the concept of "Variable" without the concept of basic math (Add and Subtract).

Our imagine have boundaries, boundaries which we can break given the right input. That boundaries are why people first think that there are no atoms, and the boundaries break when Bohr (I think) proof that atoms is real. Science is more about UNCOVERING (Atoms, Light, Formula, Space, Etc) than Creating (Creating comes after we uncover something).

Anyhow, now we are reasoning from a situation where no outside influences have ever entered the brain, which isn't exactly a situation any mind has ever found itself in. — Tzeentch

Are you sure there are ZERO influence outside our brains? : D the concept of debate? the concept of being in philosophy forum? hmmm

diesynyang

↪Tzeentch

Purple is the mix between red and blue. Why would that be unimaginable? — Tzeentch

Well, Psychologist and Scientist are STILL arguing that people cannot imagine a new color they haven't seen, even IF the color already exist. (See Google, you might add something to their debate : D) because our brain doesn't work that way.

And if math appeared out of there being multiple objects and humans started adding them up, doesn't that mean all an imagination needs is one or more objects to start inventing math on their own? — Tzeentch

^Mhhmm, yes, our brain can do epic stuff even if the data is so small and seems arbitrary. Example : The Concept of Gravity, it exist, but no one don't (not can't) imagine it. But a simple drop of an apple is enough for Newton to think (Imagined) the concept of gravity, another one is Quantum mechanics, people cannot think or imagine the Quantum concept before Einstein.

The limit of our brain is put to the limit in science. But even Science talk more about UNCOVERING (atom, gravity, light, quantum) than CREATING (Creating basically making something out of something).

Anyhow, now we are reasoning from a situation where no outside influences have ever entered the brain, which isn't exactly a situation any mind has ever found itself in. — Tzeentch

Are you sure there are ZERO influence in our brain? : D the concept of debate? color? a child? philosophy?

Tzeentch

Well, Psychologist and Scientist are STILL arguing that people cannot imagine a new color they haven't seen, even IF the color already exist. (See Google, you might add something to their debate : D) because our brain doesn't work that way. — diesynyang

I'm no scientist, nor am I really interested in scientific theory on the matter. Doesn't it boil down to whether the mind is capable of creating new concepts of its own? That almost goes without saying. All advancements of mankind are fruits of the mind primarily. As long as there is some basis to work from, the new things the mind can imagine are infinite. To illustrate:

Lets say we have the three primary colors: red, blue and yellow. If we start with these three, we can then, by continuously combining them, create new colors and new shades of colors. Every color or shade we create can be combined with the others to create new shades and colors.

Are you sure there are ZERO influence in our brain? : D the concept of debate? color? a child? philosophy? — diesynyang

What I meant is, that we were arguing whether the mind can come up with new concepts out of nothing, but I've never seen, experienced or heard mention of an empty mind, so it's not necessarily productive to argue that point.

NuncAmissa

I believe that our minds cannot create new concepts out of pure nothing. However, given even a small amount of input (data), a larger concept or idea can be made. Hypothetically speaking, one cannot create anything from nothing. This denotes that, in a completely blank mind, ideas can only be created from outside stimuli.

Going to the color example given, I would argue that the mind is capable to modify any color. For example, Purple: a combination of red and blue. From that idea, we can create the idea of a lighter shade or a darker hue. The mind is extremely flexible and changing. It is able to twist reality with something we call 'imagination.'

This concept is seen in hallucinations or in dreams. Clearly, I have never seen an ominous man on my ceiling in real life, but my mind is capable of imagining it. However, I have SEEN ominous men and stalkers by the streets. The mind is only able to modify experiences or build from old ideas. Not create new ones from scratch.

One can imagine new concepts because old concepts were present. There has always been a need for input.

Best Wishes,
NuncAmissa

diesynyang

↪NuncAmissa

Agree

hks

↪Tzeentch

Infinite is a rather vague word.

Is space infinite? This is a valid question.

Is the mind infinite? This is an invalid question.

Sorry, but that's how I see it.

NuncAmissa

↪hks

He meant it like this:
"Is the mind capable of creating ideas or concepts that are exclusive to one's mind?"
If so, then the mind is infinite, for it is possible for the mind to create an infinite amount of new ideas.
The debate centers around the idea of whether such a mind can create new ones.

It isn't necessarily an invalid question since we were talking of the abstract and not the physical.

hks

↪NuncAmissa

I don't see anything infinite about that. Creative yes. Infinite no.

NuncAmissa

↪hks

How do you define "Infinite" in the first place?

hks

↪NuncAmissa

Being trained in mathematics since elementary school, infinite to me means a sequence of anything that has no end. Such as outer space. As far as we can see with our telescopes, especially Hubble, space has no end.

Nathaniel

To be infinite we have to especially some ground rules. The mind on the creative end is capable of coming up with an infinite number of ideas but those ideas are limited by the knowledge one already posses, but to store new ideas other ideas have to disappear or become altered to fit. In the physical realm the mind can only operate your body, breathing ,heartbeat and the like so it once again is hampered by the individual it inhabits.

NuncAmissa

↪hks

I believe that is where the misunderstanding lies.

We used the word "infinite" to describe the uncountable number of ideas or concepts that may result from the mind. Like the Fibonacci sequence, the mind is only capable of making new ideas from old. The Fibonacci sequence is infinite is it not? Then, I would argue that the mind is also infinite since it can also create a sequence as infinite.

We weren't referring to the mind's physical limitations (the brain's size, shape, or what not) but we were referring to creativity of the mind

NuncAmissa

↪Nathaniel

I agree, however we need to keep in mind that the main contention is basically:

"Is there any parameters onto what ideas the mind can create?"

Nathaniel

That which the mind can create is equal to the knowledge base the thinker posses. If all you have to work with is wood you can only build a wooden object. A persons thought experiments can only branch out to the limit of understanding of the world around them. Now if you had a collective mind of all creatures across the universe. That mind would be creatively unlimited.

hks

↪NuncAmissa

In philosophy you always need to be careful about using only precise language. Philosophy is not a creative writing exercise with flowery language. Philosophy requires precision in wording and speech. Creative means creative and infinite means infinite, and n'ary the twain shall meet.

NuncAmissa

↪hks

I concede to your point. The question could have been phrased clearer.
However our ideas still stand:The mind is limited though incredibly creative.

Tzeentch

↪hks

Now, before we start I'd like to say I understand that infinite is a rather loaded term, but I used it to get us into the proper mindset, for the mind is truly expansive, probably more so than we realize. So I would ask of you not to get stuck on the semantics of the topic, but rather explore with me the possibilities of the mind and philosophize how extraordinary (or not) these possibilities are. — Tzeentch

This has already been addressed.

Forgottenticket

"Cheap" mental tricks or not, if you are experiencing it, isn't it real? — Tzeentch

Your OP is about if the mind is infinite. I thought you were wanting to discuss ontological realism and not the existential nature of epistemology.

Is The Mind Infinite?

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