That doesn't mean that Science is useless. — ssu
1) Science has Zero, I repeat Zero, understanding with regard to Consciousness. — SteveKlinko
I'm attacking the Physicalists that push the, lets call it what it is, Lie that Science understands Consciousness even in the most fundamental way. Science really does have Zero understanding of Consciousness. I think most real Scientists would agree. My beef is with the dogmatic Physicalists on the different forums that don't want to debate about it. They just want to Insult anyone that defies their Beliefs. I don't know if most of these Physicalists even have a good Science background.I'm not convinced it's useful to attack sciencists on such a specific topic. Their problem is more general: they apply science where it cannot be usefully applied, outside of its area of relevance/use. Like using a hammer to design software. This (your OP) is an example, for sure, but there's so much more wrong with sciencism than just this. IMO, of course. — Pattern-chaser
The problem is that people see in your argument just the words "Science has zero understanding" and they stop reading there as they are offended by all the anti-science rhetoric they are confronted in our times. — ssu
1) Science has Zero, I repeat Zero, understanding with regard to Consciousness. — SteveKlinko
False.
Let's start with that. — Terrapin Station
You simply said "zero understanding with regard to consciousness."
The neural correlates of consciousness aren't something with regard to consciousness?
If you want to make a more specific, qualified claim, make that claim from the start, and then we can address that. — Terrapin Station
Re a blueprint of how color experiences work, we have a lot of research in the vein of this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10651872
If that sort of thing doesn't answer the question for you, you probably need to define just what question you're asking better. — Terrapin Station
Thank You for the link but that kind of thing is all about the Neural Correlates of Color perception and not about the actual experience of Color in the Mind. — SteveKlinko
I'm sending you a bill for needing to have my eyeballs rotated back to the front of my head. — Terrapin Station
Thank You for the link but that kind of thing is all about the Neural Correlates of Color perception and not about the actual experience of Color in the Mind. — SteveKlinko
Hence "If that sort of thing doesn't answer the question for you, you probably need to define just what question you're asking better." Just what sort of thing are you looking for that that sort of blueprint isn't giving you? — Terrapin Station
I want to know How any kind of Neural Activity can result in the experience of the Redness of Red, for example, in the Conscious Mind. Mapping the Brain and Measuring the Neural Correlates of Consciousness for Red is the Easy Problem. I want to know the answer to the Hard Problem. That is, the Conscious experience of Redness itself. — SteveKlinko
...when you divide the brain into bitty bits and make millions of calculations according to a bunch of inferences, there are abundant opportunities for error, particularly when you are relying on software to do much of the work. This was made glaringly apparent back in 2009, when a graduate student conducted an fM.R.I. scan of a dead salmon and found neural activity in its brain when it was shown photographs of humans in social situations. Again, it was a salmon. And it was dead.
I want to know How any kind of Neural Activity can result in the experience of the Redness of Red, for example, in the Conscious Mind. Mapping the Brain and Measuring the Neural Correlates of Consciousness for Red is the Easy Problem. I want to know the answer to the Hard Problem. That is, the Conscious experience of Redness itself.
— SteveKlinko
Why are you assuming that there's any difference? — Terrapin Station
That paper doesn't actually use the terms "asleep" or "awake" — Terrapin Station
Of course consciousness is a physiological thing, but it is also a mental thing. — Pattern-chaser
Examples of science treating consciousness in this physical way say nothing about whether science has any understanding of consciousness-as-a-mental-phenomenon, nor do they demonstrate any such understanding. — Pattern-chaser
It would make no sense to say that they're not talking about consciousness as a mental phenomenon, as that's what consciousness is. — Terrapin Station
It treats consciousness, as I said, as a physiological thing. — Pattern-chaser
I want to know How any kind of Neural Activity can result in the experience of the Redness of Red, for example, in the Conscious Mind. Mapping the Brain and Measuring the Neural Correlates of Consciousness for Red is the Easy Problem. I want to know the answer to the Hard Problem. That is, the Conscious experience of Redness itself. — SteveKlinko
Why are you assuming that there's any difference? — Terrapin Station
Because consciousness is a physiological thing. Mentality is a physiological thing. Experience, what something feels like, is a physiological thing. That was the point of my comment. — Terrapin Station
What makes any explanation necessary or not necessary? — Terrapin Station
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