you respond dismissively and condescendingly yourself with adhomnous comments such as "It seems not to have born any fruit for you" — Janus

I said that because of your dismissive attitude.

But then, on the other hand, if we remove the radical change dream, then few of these guru guys could make a living selling books etc. Maybe the radical change dream is necessary to keep such writers in the marketplace of ideas? — Jake

So, then I must conclude from the above, that these men are con artists. Luring people into an idea that they realize that nobody can ever achieve through following in their footsteps. So, Krishnamurti was right in dismissing the very organization that was dedicated to following in his footsteps towards enlightenment. Is that correct?

You haven't answered my question. How many awakened individuals have you met? How do you know they are awakened (assuming you have met some or at least one)? — Janus

This seems a reasonable question to me, but perhaps not one that will be effective. People chase the awakening dream for emotional reasons that are not likely to be significantly impacted by logic calculations. As example, I lust after Diane Lane. Go ahead and try and talk me out of this fantasy folly. Good luck! :smile:

But it's not a dismissive attitude because I am open to hearing good reasons to support belief in what you say I am merely dismissing. If I then dismiss it will only be because you seem to be unable to present any such good reasons.

So, then I must conclude from the above, that these men are con artists. — Posty McPostface

Some of them clearly are, but the bigger picture seems more complicated, as is typical of all human affairs. JK and many other such teachers may be entirely sincere in feeling they have achieved some transformation and that they can communicate that to others. And they may be right to some limited degree. We don't know how many people were substantially changed by reading these books and didn't bother to start a writing career of their own, so we never know about them.

I agree; I do think people chase the awakening "dream" or myth for emotional reasons. I have done it myself! And there's nothing wrong with chasing things for emotional reasons, if you want to; but in this context (of philosophical discussion) if you want to say there is more to it than merely chasing it for emotional reasons then the onus is on you to provide an account of that purported "more".

I don't expect or even want to convince anyone to give up their beliefs because they can';t provide rationally supportable reasons for them, and I don't even expect (although I do want) them to admit that it is really only an emotional matter, so I will keep asking the hard questions of anyone who wants to claim anything like "objective esoteric knowledge".

BTW who is Diana Lane? Is she someone I should begin lusting after? :joke:

Sounds awfully like the placebo effect to my ears.

On one of my landscape projects I once sub-contracted to a brushwood fencing contractor who was a disciple of Da Free John. He invited me to come along to a meeting. It all seemed phony to me, but he was a nice and sincere person who genuinely believed that Da Free John was the current 'world teacher' and that he was on the path to awakening. — Janus

I encountered those books and even went to a meeting, but I was suspicious about him and never took it further. Some of his books and the Laughing Man magazine were phenomenal at the time but it all blew up in late 80's. He was an extremely complicated character, brilliant in some ways, charlatan in others.

As example, as I understand the story, Krishnamurti had an affair with his best friend's wife and then blamed his friend's distress on his friend's lack of enlightenment etc. Is that radical change? Sounds more like being really stupid and very human to me. — Jake

That was the subject of the book, Lives in the Shadow with Krishnamurti, by Rosalind Rajagopal Sloss. Found that a sobering read. You can't gild the lily, but on the other hand, if you read what Krishnamurti has to say about sexual relationships, he was never sanctimonious. But that book provided insights into Krishnamurti as a man, as distinct from Krishnamurti the teacher.

it's not a dismissive attitude because I am open to hearing good reasons to support belief in what you say I am merely dismissing... — Janus

What I meant to say was in reaction to this:

How incredibly, outrageously presumptuous of you! — Janus

which in turn was a response to this post here. When I said that it seems it had not 'borne fruit', what I meant was that you seem to be saying you had practiced meditation for 18 years, yet you think all spiritual teachers - and teachings? - are 'phony'. Perhaps I was misinterpreting?

Well, for myself, I never listened to Krishnamurti as a giver of direction. I was galvanized by his question of whether I had thought anything on my own. And his follow up question of how I would be able to tell if it was my thought.
I never got past that lesson. If I had, maybe I would view his words in another way. But as it is, I am still working on the first assignment.

JK obviously understood the different perspectives his statement “Truth is a pathless land” held, but I believe it was extremely bold and risky to state such ‘truth, in his point of view’ in a world where ignorance will always remain especially to those who allow years of fear to drive them instead of trying to understand the limitations they bind upon themselves by doing so, which of course leads them to seek contradictions defending their beliefs (speaking on religion) to further fuel the rage against whoever opposes them.

It’s the sad truth that the majority will come down to individuality from ones own illusion of strength through an ignorant, yet, some with admirable loyalty and how great their emotional attachments are towards their devoted beliefs that appears easier to let define themselves by giving them a purpose to live, a lighter burden or a possible second chance to dream, which in hindsight isn’t even their decision to make. But without truth, leaves faith blind, and with our natural human instincts to survive it’s inevitable to avoid the subjects of death, purpose, happiness, life, etc.

This is why I believe JK’s statement to be bold and extremely risky because regardless of how influential he was at the time and the impact he’s had and still has on our evolved technological society today not everyone is supposed to crawl down the rabbit hole asking dangerous questions whist potentially spending the rest of their lives in the dark completely unaware of a way out. This is why many people need to cling on to what they believe is the truth because it’s the easiest and most likely the safest way for many individuals to get through life, and now with technology evolving so quick I’ve been blessed to witness someone so devoted to Jesus Christ that nothing else would matter. I’m sure there’s many more, and I wouldn’t want anything more for them if they’re happy.

JK’s statement also relates to Leo Tolstoy’s quote “All we can know is that we know nothing”, but that in itself tells us we can still know ‘nothing’, which leaves us with something. Some foundation if you will, that can help us seek & create a more balanced understanding of truth to stand on.
I’ve been on a journey for years now and I’ve thought about taking the easy way out a few times when there doesn’t seem to be any point making the effort to pursue the light I couldn’t see at the end of the tunnel, but with meditation and other forms of practices I’ve been lucky enough to reach a real one time awakening for now.
It was near the brink of believing there was no hope where I was able to detach myself from everything that wasn’t serving me. I wouldn’t say I detached these toxic burdens in a gentle and subtle way as I would’ve liked, but I could finally see light at the end of the tunnel as 70% of my burdens just vanished. I was able to be a lot more mindful during my journey eliminating bad habits along the way and one day after many years, but only weeks this time practicing consistent meditation my mind became so clear that I broke down in happiness. I couldn’t stop crying. It felt as if my life energy was completely connected to the source and every obstacle or heavy thought that flowed through me I had an answer for. I believe in that moment of time I was one with truth itself. I am very grateful that I overcame this darkness because it was understanding the yin and yang, (dark and light) that helped set me free.
This kind of enlightenment only happens by luck, but being present with the help of meditation, detaching myself from anchored emotions, looking and sensing what really is/was beyond what my ego limited my understanding of life by judging and labelling, I woke up.

There’s a good chance you guys have read this book already but I remember reading “The way of the peaceful warrior” by Dan Millman years ago.
Regardless of his breakthrough after a tragic misfortune his extensive research in many subjects to do with the mind/enlightenment and practice in breathing techniques/mindfulness meditation he continued on for years before and later after he had regained his faith in self. He claimed to have isolated himself from society like all the gurus do, but he still had no answers. And then he heard this story that shifted his being forever.

“Milarepa had searched everywhere for enlightenment, but could find no answer--until one day, he saw an old man walking slowly down a mountain path, carrying a heavy sack. Immediately, Milarepa sensed that this old man knew the secret he had been desperately seeking for many years.

" 'Old man, please tell me what you know. What is enlightenment?' "The old man smiled at him for a moment, and swung the heavy burden off his shoulders, and stood straight.
" 'Yes, I see!' cried Milarepa. 'My everlasting gratitude. But please, one question more. What is after enlightenment?' "Smiling again, the old man picked up the sack once again, slung it over his shoulders, steadied his burden, and continued on his way."

Idk. I still haven’t hit 30 years young, but I know my life experience isn’t regrettable because It wasn’t without the exp of living in despair for years that showed me the truth that if you don’t give up you are on the right path. Obviously after the day I reached enlightenment for a short period I was able to connect some dots, but at least I’m for certain that there was a shift. One where it’s given me a massive leap towards reaching a state of ‘nothingness’.

But that book provided insights into Krishnamurti as a man, as distinct from Krishnamurti the teacher. — Wayfarer

Yes, if we just look at these guys (and they're almost always guys, which might be enough to make one at least a bit suspicious) as philosophers, speakers and writers instead of saints, then there is no conflict or scandal, and normal human business is to be expected and accepted.

Krishnamurti can be a bit tricky, because while he repeatedly and sincerely rebelled against any process of authority, as a person he carried himself in an authoritative kind of manner, probably because he was a dignified fellow by nature and people had been looking up to him since he was a child. It might have been a bit better if JK had slipped a lame fart joke in to his talks now and again to pop the authority bubble. :smile:

I still believe that JK was a very articulate insightful person who many will find worth investigating. I'm still intrigued by his insight that "thought is inherently divisive" to this day, 40+ years after first encountering that idea in his writing. To me, that one concept explains quite a bit of the human condition.

I agree; I do think people chase the awakening "dream" or myth for emotional reasons. I have done it myself! And there's nothing wrong with chasing things for emotional reasons, if you want to; but in this context (of philosophical discussion) if you want to say there is more to it than merely chasing it for emotional reasons then the onus is on you to provide an account of that purported "more". — Janus

Yes, I can vote for that. This is a philosophy forum so your challenge is appropriate.

I don't expect or even want to convince anyone to give up their beliefs because they can';t provide rationally supportable reasons for them, and I don't even expect (although I do want) them to admit that it is really only an emotional matter, so I will keep asking the hard questions of anyone who wants to claim anything like "objective esoteric knowledge". — Janus

I do stuff like this all the time myself. It's ultimately a largely pointless endeavor, a form of irrationality in itself, but hey, we were born to do this dance so let's do it.

BTW who is Diana Lane? Is she someone I should begin lusting after? — Janus

Who is Diane Lane? WHO IS DIANE LANE???? Death to all non-believing blasphemers! No, of course you shouldn't lust after her, she's all mine, keep your grubby little hands off of her!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Lane

I don't deny that more radical transformations do, rarely, take place, but I don't believe they can reliably be achieved by any deliberate form of disciplined search. — Janus

[My highlighting.]

I wonder if it simply depends on the nature of your search, i.e. how you search. :chin:

it's not a dismissive attitude because I am open to hearing good reasons to support belief in what you say I am merely dismissing... — Janus


What I meant to say was in reaction to this:

How incredibly, outrageously presumptuous of you! — Janus


which in turn was a response to this post here. When I said that it seems it had not 'borne fruit', what I meant was that you seem to be saying you had practiced meditation for 18 years, yet you think all spiritual teachers - and teachings? - are 'phony'. Perhaps I was misinterpreting? — Wayfarer

I don't deny that meditation can yield results; I know it from experience. What I am skeptical about is the notion that it can be deliberately practiced and reliably lead to "enlightenment". I am extremely doubtful about the veracity or even coherence of the common notion of enlightenment as some kind of esoteric, higher, objective knowledge.

I think enlightenment is really just being yourself, being relaxed and living in the present. It consists in feelings of openness, release and joy rather than closedness, tension and anguish or anxiety. the former is a life of "light' and the latter a life of "darkness". Perhaps a more radical definition would be that enlightenment consists in living your life wholly for others, without concern for you own welfare.

I think this way of being is manifested only by very few spiritual geniuses, and as @Jake said, the fact that they have somehow arrived at such a state of being does not entail that they know how to teach others to achieve it. I really doubt that anyone who seeks it without the absolute selfless obsession characteristic of genius attains it.

:cool:

I am extremely doubtful about the veracity or even coherence of the common notion of enlightenment as some kind of esoteric, higher, objective knowledge. — Janus

Then, what is it?

Didya read the following paragraph, Posty? :grin:

I think enlightenment is really just being yourself, being relaxed and living in the present. — Janus

Hmm, being "yourself" seems pretty hard to do nowadays. Heh.

I agree, it's a challenge. On one hand it might sound like a triviality: of course I am myself, who else could I be? I think it means being fully accepting of what and who you are, though; 'being comfortable in your own skin'. so to speak; and that may take a lot of work.

Mhm. No more wearing masks can be a challenge in this parade called "life".

I don't see why being yourself may not include "wearing masks".

Just figurative speech. I always held Buddhists to be linear in their affect and personality. No hype, jazz, or drama.

Yes, they do generally seem to be rather restricted in their behavior and their moral attitudes to human behavior; particularly in regards to homosexuality, the pleasures of the flesh, forms of entertainment, intoxicants, partying hard and so on. Of course, I have no doubt there are exceptions!

Yes, they do generally seem to be rather restricted in their behavior and their moral attitudes to the human behavior; particularly in regards to homosexuality, the pleasures of the flesh, forms of entertainment, intoxicants, partying hard and so on. Of course, I have no doubt there are exceptions! — Janus

Yeah, nothing more or less than pure compassion and harmony of the spirit. I adopted the Buddhist attitude towards such matters of turning off the TV, and "disconnecting" from the world. In fact, all I do nowadays is just wallow or post here. That's the height of my feelings of bliss and equanimity.

Is meditation self-actualization? The K or Buddist seemed to have ignored the need for esteem and instead jumped all the way to the very top of the pyramid.

Yeah, nothing more or less than pure compassion and harmony of the spirit. — Posty McPostface

I wonder whether, given the immense diversity of human nature, one person's harmony of the spirit is not another person's disharmony.

I wonder whether, given the immense diversity of human nature, one person's harmony of the spirit is not another person's disharmony. — Janus

That's a difficult question to ascertain. I think, that the Buddhist is very sensitive towards the affect of others, given their esteemed 'compassion'. Hence, the need to isolate from the problems of the world? I don't know how the Dali Lama get's up every morning and dismisses the negativity of the world. Should I meditate more?

I don't think Budhhists, or adherents of other religions generally look with much favour on secular forms of creative expression.

I think, that the Buddhist is very sensitive towards the affect of others, given their esteemed 'compassion'. — Posty McPostface

Yes, but it often seems to be somewhat patronizing, to come from a sense of superiority as though "We know better".

Yes, but it often seems to be somewhat patronizing, to come from a sense of superiority as though "We know better". — Janus

Well, that's certainly not the intent of compassion. I often conflate compassion with empathy; but, it seems to me that there is a sincere desire to share with others in their toil and suffering. Hence, I view anyone as saying "I am enlightened" to be full of himself or herself.