Journey as journey

Deleted User

One only works towards a chosen ideal of Truth (meaning, an end to suffering, nonduality, what have you) in this life; one does not know with certainty the Truth's existence. One works with varying degrees of certainty and effort towards this ideal. And so one cannot know the Truth until one has been saved by it (it is in large part not in one's control at the least), or one would possess the Truth before being saved.

In addition, an example is an individual who takes action contrary to the path of Truth despite being on the path in other ways; one becomes confused and despondent or unvirtuous at times; yet one is saved. Why is that? How can one blame them? They know nothing of the Truth's existence - only a hint in a morass of pain. That is because it is not in our knowledge or doings (the way of the Truth), but perhaps that because our lack of control over what shapes us shapes our attainment of the Truth and what seems to be grace. I think this happens quite frequently.

RegularGuy

↪Nasir Shuja

I agree. You can be saved but still at times deviate from the Light of Truth. The material world’s temptations sometimes catch us off guard. Thanks for sharing!

RegularGuy

↪Nasir Shuja

It occurred to me that perhaps I misunderstood you. Are you saying that some people believe they are “saved” when they only possess a portion of Truth? Do you believe you know Truth?

Deleted User

I am not saying that, no. And no, I have not reached that yet.

RegularGuy

↪Nasir Shuja

How would one know when one has reached it? And how does one sustain living in Truth once it’s reached? It seems to me it takes constant vigilance.

Deleted User

I have no idea. I am concertedly on the path, having gotten very far compared to where I started, but those are things I wouldn't dare guess at unless I reached it. Feedback from one you know possesses the Truth, various signs would likely happen. I could offer some guesses - your fate comes true, you do service to help humanity and other beings, you travel beyond death and form, you experience the unity of all the preliminary experiences, you meet enlightened ones, you receive guidance from God, you attain a certain station, etc.

RegularGuy

I have no idea either. Maybe my journey will end up being a blessing. God willing.

Terrapin Station

One only works towards a chosen ideal of Truth (meaning, an end to suffering, nonduality, what have you) — Nasir Shuja

I'm stumped why you see truth as being another name for a goal one would have, so that one is working towards some ideal.

Deleted User

That would be because I am referring to a truth that is not logical but experiential also.

RegularGuy

↪Terrapin Station

I probably shouldn't speak for Nasir, but I'll give my interpretation:

Truth with a capital "T" is different from "truth". Truth is the ultimate goal of any spiritual being, but whilst one is living in the material realm, one can only catch glimpses of ultimate Truth. One must act in the material realm where we find ourselves in this life, and whenever we act in this realm things will not be perfect as Truth is. We have to find meaning and strive to limit suffering (in Truth there is no suffering but in the material realm which isn't perfect suffering is unavoidable), to become more spirit than matter (Truth is Spirit with a capital "S", hence Nasir's use of the term "nonduality"), etc.

Logic and empiricism are good tools to understand the material realm; but love, peace, joy, empathy, understanding, and patience are needed to understand Truth.

Terrapin Station

↪Nasir Shuja

<shrug> Why would you see "experiential truth" as a term for "ideal goals" that someone might have?

Terrapin Station

I probably shouldn't speak for Nasir, but I'll give my interpretation:

Truth with a capital "T" is different from "truth". Truth is the ultimate goal of any spiritual being, but whilst one is living in the material realm, one can only catch glimpses of ultimate Truth. One must act in the material realm where we find ourselves in this life, and whenever we act in this realm things will not be perfect as Truth is. We have to find meaning and strive to limit suffering (in Truth there is no suffering but in the material realm which isn't perfect suffering is unavoidable), to become more spirit than matter (Truth is Spirit with a capital "S", hence Nasir's use of the term "nonduality"), etc.

Logic and empiricism are good tools to understand the material realm; but love, peace, joy, empathy, understanding, and patience are needed to understand Truth. — Noah Te Stroete

So some religious nonsense basically? Again, this board can be frustrating in that there are so many religious believers here as well as so many fans of continental philosophy.

RegularGuy

↪Terrapin Station

Well, you are entitled to that opinion, but the virtues listed above are good for atheists, too.

Deleted User

Well it's not really religious. But experience is a prerequisite to fully understand what I mean, in terms of a desirable spiritual goal (perhaps something transcendental in a sense, for me at least; doesn't have to be emotional or pleasurable or what have you), and in terms of an escape from suffering. A person without a certain attitude towards suffering, purpose, action etc in life will not be strongly motivated towards seeking an experiential exit from this kind of reality. More suffering, more desire for some kind of inexplicable exit.

Terrapin Station

Well, you are entitled to that opinion, but the virtues listed above are good for atheists, too. — Noah Te Stroete

Atheist "spiritualism"?

The idea of nonphysical existents in general is incoherent.

RegularGuy

↪Terrapin Station

"love, peace, joy, empathy, understanding, and patience"

You don't have to be spiritual to believe that these are virtues.

Terrapin Station

↪Noah Te Stroete

What do those have to do with the term "spirit," with truth, etc?

RegularGuy

↪Terrapin Station

In religious texts, these virtues must be cultivated to attain Truth (with a capital "T"). Look, you don't have to like it. You don't have to read it. It is your prerogative to comment, but I first recommend reading the Gospels and the Upanishads if you want some context. Read them. Don't read them. No skin off my nose.

Terrapin Station

↪Noah Te Stroete

That comes across as both patronizing and as a deflection designed to avoid critical thinking.

RegularGuy

↪Terrapin Station

Spirituality has nothing to do with critical thinking. There are no good rational arguments for being spiritual. One has to feel it.

Terrapin Station

Spirituality has nothing to do with critical thinking — Noah Te Stroete

Haha--touche.

Unfortunately philosophy should have something to do with critical thinking.

RegularGuy

↪Terrapin Station

Ontology and phenomenology rarely dealt with critical thinking in the Anglo-American analytic sense.

Terrapin Station

Ontology and phenomenology rarely dealt with critical thinking in the Anglo-American analytic sense — Noah Te Stroete

That's a sentence you could write. I just don't know why you'd write it.

RegularGuy

Ontology and phenomenology rarely dealt with critical thinking in the Anglo-American analytic sense
— Noah Te Stroete

That's a sentence you could write. I just don't know why you'd write it. — Terrapin Station

What I mean is, you seem to be a fan of Anglo-American analytic philosophy. Phenomenology and the corresponding ontology are continental philosophies that deal more with experiential truth than rational truth. Of course there is thinking involved in continental philosophy, as there is thinking involved in religious texts, but both are trying to get at the essence of Being. Anglo-American analytic philosophy seems to fail here (at least to my estimation).

Terrapin Station

↪Noah Te Stroete

Why in the world would you see ontology as a topic only in continental philosophy, first off?

RegularGuy

↪Terrapin Station

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Anglo-American analytic philosophy's handling of ontology is lacking in how things seem or feel in a way that continental philosophy and religious texts aren't (to my estimation).

Terrapin Station

Anglo-American analytic philosophy's handling of ontology is lacking in how things seem or feel — Noah Te Stroete

Well, yeah, because we'd be doing epistemology there instead.

RegularGuy

↪Terrapin Station

and consistent and coherent with scientific observation. It's mathematical models have very accurate predictive power.

Terrapin Station

and consistent and coherent with scientific observation. It's mathematical models have very accurate predictive power. — Noah Te Stroete

Meant for the other thread?

RegularGuy

↪Terrapin Station

yeah. oops.

leo

Unfortunately philosophy should have something to do with critical thinking. — Terrapin Station

You hold critical thinking in high esteem because you believe it is the path to attain your chosen ideal of Truth, in OP's words. But critical thinking itself leads one to realize that critical thinking alone cannot determine what you ought to do, it can only help you achieve a goal that was set in other ways. It's only a tool to help you get where you want, it doesn't tell you where you ought to be nor guarantees that you will get there.

Journey as journey

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