Insofar as I understand what you are saying there, sure.↪Terrapin Station Could we not also bias deterministic influences as well? Using freewill to make uniform types of determined choices (not all choices are black or white) on a constant basis could also influence the chains of influence that influence us. In other words we can take some part in causality, even if it is a small one. Shifting towards our preferred spectrum of gray. — Jamesk
Wasn't Strawson saying that we are not ultimately responsible for our actions? This seems to be a radical claim, and it has huge implications for human concerns. At least I think so. — Noah Te Stroete
However, it would seem to be a non sequitur to move from these experimental results to inferring that there are no such things as mental states. — Arkady
I don't think this quite cuts it. If responsibility were an arbitrary convention, how can it play a dynamic role in our personal and social life? ... — Dfpolis
I'd be careful how you're using "arbitrary" there. Something being conventional or subjective doesn't imply that it's "arbitrary" in the sense of "random" or "per (fleeting) whim," Neither implies that the thing in question is irrational either. — Terrapin Station
As for how something that's only a convention, or only a way we think can play a dynamic role in our personal and social life, it's hard to believe that you're even asking that question, because why would you think that something that's just a way that we think or just a convention wouldn't be able to play a dynamic role in our personal and social life? — Terrapin Station
if you're using the term "responsibility" for that objective fact, you'd have to be careful to remove all normative/evaluative connotation from the term . . . which would be difficult to do outside of a specialized academic context, — Terrapin Station
Furthermore, no one in their right mind would claim that behavior supervenes on the planets. Where did you get that from? — Noah Te Stroete
People, or the entire Earth, could disappear. That's not just imaginary in the sense of fantastical, it could easily happen for a number of different reasons. — Terrapin Station
Supervenience is handy as a way of talking about a certain kind of dependence relation, without restricting the relation to situations where we're claiming either a substantial identity or a causal relationship. — Terrapin Station
Humans are social animals
Humans have developed the concept of morality and responsibility
Therefore all social animals will develop the same concept.
All humans are social animals
If humans develop morality because they are social animals then
All social animals would do the same.
How do your premises lead to that conclusion? Your argument is neither sound nor valid. — Jamesk
No, I see the normative implications of responsibility as quite rational — Dfpolis
Have these experiments been replicated with the same results? It seems they would have to be replicated a few times with the same results to be cogent. — Noah Te Stroete
Also, the placebo effect can be explained by brain states. Is placebo treatment sustainable? — Noah Te Stroete
First, conventional and subjective are completely different concepts — Dfpolis
What I cited were meta-analyses of hundreds of experiments. Meta-analysis is a technique developed in physics to refine the accuracy of physical constants. It involves both reviewing experiments' methodology and the statistical aggregation of the results of many similar experiments. Given that the effects here are small, any single experiment can show no effect or or a negative effect due to random fluctuations. That is why it is important to aggregate the results of many experiments.
A possible source of error in meta-analyses is the so-called "file drawer effect." It happens when researchers looking for, say, a positive effect, find no effect or a negative effect and decide to file their work away rather than publish it. The meta-studies I cited considered possible file drawer studies and found that the number required to reduce the results to insignificance was unreasonably high -- many times the number published. So, it seems that the result is well confirmed. — Dfpolis
1. The natural reaction to hearing about the drunk driver killing the bicyclist is a reactive attitude that the driver is guilty. In most cases, a perpetrator has a feeling of guilt after recognizing a consequence of a bad choice — Relativist
It is inconceivable that we would stop holding such people morally accountable, or stop feeling guilty, even if it were somehow proven that determinism is true. — Relativist
Indeed, the fact that we have these attitudes contributes to our behavior, because we generally prefer to avoid guilt and social approbation, and enjoy pride and respect. — Relativist
2. Could the drunk driver have done differently? Yes she could have, if she had held the strong belief that the risk of driving drunk was so great that it outweighed her impulse to do so. This could only have occurred had there been something different about the past (formation of that belief), but that's reasonable. If our choices aren't the result of our personal beliefs, dispositions, and impulses - what are they? Random? — Relativist
#1 and #2 are more or less independent, but in tandem they provide not only a coherent account of moral responsibility, they also explain why normal functioning people strive for generally moral behavior. We want to avoid guilt, fit in, and we want to avoid approbation by others. — Relativist
The problem is that there are no objective normatives. — Terrapin Station
I wasn't using "or" in the sense of "here's another word for the same thing." I was using it in the sense of "cats or dogs"--two different things we could be talking about.
At any rate, conventions aren't arbitrary. — Terrapin Station
Are brain waves emitted photons? — Noah Te Stroete
Brain waves are electrical voltage variations detected on the scalp. They result from the collective firing of neurons, which is an electrochemical process. As all electromagnetic field changes are associated with photons, so are brain waves, but their frequency is so low they have virtually no energy. — Dfpolis
And if we change the wording from social animals to social mammals would that make it clearer for you? — Jamesk
Yeah, really. Because that's the way the world is. No matter where you look in the mind-independent world, you'll not find any normatives. — Terrapin Station
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