Any assessment has to be done by a mind, so, it seems that what you want, "a mind-independent assessment," is a contradiction in terms. — Dfpolis
Hence "If normatives are only mental, then there are no facts about them aside from the fact that a particular mind is thinking about them however that mind is thinking about them." — Terrapin Station
You can't refer to or grasp the objective reality of anything that's only mental, because it's only mental--by definition not objective.
Are you claiming that normatives are referring to something non-mental that's anything like a normative? What objective thing? — Terrapin Station
I was referring to the objective fact that the human mind/brain seeks order — Noah Te Stroete
No, I an saying norms have an objective foundation in reality, which though not themselves norms, justify the application of norms. For example, there is a biological basis for not eating 2-week old cream pie. — Dfpolis
It’s a fact about how brains work. — Noah Te Stroete
Your stipulation was that mental states refer to the outside world truths — Noah Te Stroete
Brain scans aren’t mental. But I’m sure that’s not what you’re saying? — Noah Te Stroete
fMRI scans in conjunction with reported accounts are observable phenomena. They are objective. That’s how we corroborate the mental activity of minds giving order to the world. — Noah Te Stroete
Just take the example of a city. It is order. Minds came up with the idea, but there are physical aspects to what we call “cities”. Living as intelligent social beings, we also cannot consistently live together without emergent objective social norms. — Noah Te Stroete
But what is a mind-independent fact? — Noah Te Stroete
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