Your model does not permit an effective agent, it only defends a powerless one. — Valentinus

I think, that isn't true. A powerless agent can get better under the circumstances that willpower has no say in the matter. Intentionality is undirected and futile. The immediate responses are resignation, frustration, and perpetuation of depressive affect. Now, I don't know how to get out of that loop, that many people face when confronted with crippling depression.

And if you didn't try to get better, then could you really say that you intended to get better? — Harry Hindu

This seems to introduce a paradox. When is an intent realized or conceived and when it is not? Does this reduce the issue to what is an intent? Hence, we're perpetually stuck in never knowing what we really want?

That sounds more like an unconscious intention verses a willpower. I still don't understand how an intention can be undirected since it seems by definition to always be directed toward the completion of a goal. — aporiap

Yes, but, again taking the example of "depression". I have the intent to get better but it is undirected, otherwise, people would be able to simply will themselves out of that state of mind, which is quite rare. Hence, what do you think about this "undirected" aspect of intent? It seems more like, as you mentioned, and an unconscious thing that is in the background and never entirely realized unless some goal is accomplished unknowingly.

Your model precludes helping yourself.
Unless the condition changes without your help, your model is part of the problem.

Your model precludes helping yourself.
Unless the condition changes without your help, your model is part of the problem. — Valentinus

No, it can encompass helping yourself. But, this isn't something that can be done alone or simply will oneself out of it. Anyway, when one is depressed or otherwise known as "learned helplessness", then what is required to realize the intent to get better, then?

I have the undirected intentionality to get better; but, I don't know how to realize it. Thus, what is left to do?

I did not say you can do it by simply willing it or doing it alone. But you can't do it without you. You are the only one who can introduce new habits.

You are the only one who can introduce new habits. — Valentinus

But, harping on the example of "depression", it isn't a habit. Just a state of mind. Anyway, to want to get better one has to will it. But, if that will is undirected or disorganized, then how do you know when you get better if you don't know how-to. Does that make remission spontaneous?

So, not to get stuck in a loop here. How does one create a goal when confronted with undirected intentionality?

I did not say that depression is just a habit. It is very much a combination of factors, many of them beyond one's direct control. I don't know anything about "spontaneous remission"
I do think the "thought loop" does involve habits and it is one of the doors open to something new.

Yes, but, again taking the example of "depression". I have the intent to get better but it is undirected, otherwise, people would be able to simply will themselves out of that state of mind, which is quite rare. Hence, what do you think about this "undirected" aspect of intent? It seems more like, as you mentioned, and an unconscious thing that is in the background and never entirely realized unless some goal is accomplished unknowingly.

I think in the depression example the person has decided or intended to get better [decide or intend are synonymous] but has not put his decision into action because he lacks the willpower or has low capacity to direct his behavior toward his goals -- his ruminative and self-sabotaging habits are too ingrained for him to overcome at the moment.

So the intention is still 'directed' toward the goal of getting better, but is not put into action

I did not say that depression is just a habit. It is very much a combination of factors, many of them beyond one's direct control. I don't know anything about "spontaneous remission"
I do think the "thought loop" does involve habits and it is one of the doors open to something new. — Valentinus

OK, I understand. But, what is so difficult in the case of "depression", that people get stuck in it? Why is it so self-reinforcing?

[decide or intend are synonymous] — aporiap

Are they?

So the intention is still 'directed' toward the goal of getting better, but is not put into action — aporiap

Then, what is the deciding factor in getting better? The intent is still undirected. One doesn't know how the fly gets out of the bottle it is stuck in. Is it a matter of trial and error to try different methods of getting better or is the outcome of this undirected intentionality, manifest in trial and error, spontaneous? This would make "intent" somewhat synonymous with "willpower". But, the two aren't the same.

Are they?

I'd say yes. The minimum you need for an intention is a decision to complete a goal. What else do you feel you'd need in order for an intention?

Then, what is the deciding factor in getting better?

I'd say willpower.

The intent is still undirected. One doesn't know how the fly gets out of the bottle it is stuck in. Is it a matter of trial and error to try different methods of getting better or is the outcome of this undirected intentionality, manifest in trial and error, spontaneous? This would make "intent" somewhat synonymous with "willpower". But, the two aren't the same.

Hmm, so I'm unsure what you are linking the directedness of an intention to. I am linking it to the goal of the intention - 'get out of the bottle' in the fly case, 'get better' in the human case. In that sense all intentions are directed. It doesn't matter the course of action or the way in which the goal is realized, only that a person or animal has decided - consciously or unconsciously- to complete a goal.

What else do you feel you'd need in order for an intention? — aporiap

I'm not quite sure; but, there is a distinction I want to draw out between willpower and intentionality. Intentionality stands above willpower in that motivation and willpower is directed at some goal. But, here I go on about "depression". When the way out of the bottle is unknown to the fly, then willpower seems like the only thing that intent can resort to. So, yeah, willpower, willpower, willpower.

To summarize, willpower, motivation, desire, and emotions are not a volition. The intent is a volition.

OK, I understand. But, what is so difficult in the case of "depression", that people get stuck in it? Why is it so self-reinforcing? — Wallows

That is a good question. I will think upon it.

One of the things I like about Mahoney is that he explores how the automatic quality becomes a way to distinguish other things against it. It helps me with my darkness.

I'm not quite sure; but, there is a distinction I want to draw out between willpower and intentionality. Intentionality stands above willpower in that motivation and willpower is directed at some goal. But, here I go on about "depression". When the way out of the bottle is unknown to the fly, then willpower seems like the only thing that intent can resort to. So, yeah, willpower, willpower, willpower.

Hmm, I think the way you make sense of willpower is different than me. I don't think, for example, willpower or motivation is directed at a goal. You can get up 'feeling motivated', for example. In that case the motivation can be described as 'feeling driven' or 'excited/energetic'- like you are determined to get 'things' done - anything that comes in front of you not necessarily one thing in particular. Willpower, like I said before, seems like a 'capacity' or a general ability to control urges and manage actions - instead of eating a delicious pizza, deciding not to eat it.. instead of angrily lashing out at someone, showing restraint. It doesn't seem linked to a goal whereas intentions are always linked to a specific goal.. I can't think of someone saying to themself, without context or specific goal, 'I have intention'.. where as it makes sense for a person to say 'I have a lot of willpower' or 'I am/feel motivated'

This seems to introduce a paradox. When is an intent realized or conceived and when it is not? Does this reduce the issue to what is an intent? Hence, we're perpetually stuck in never knowing what we really want? — Wallows

I mentioned earlier that our intent to get better is a result of the experience of pain. We don't experience the intent to get better when we feel good - only when we feel bad. Intent could simply be a mental/neurological response to some stimuli.

Willpower, like I said before, seems like a 'capacity' or a general ability to control urges and manage actions - instead of eating a delicious pizza, deciding not to eat it.. — aporiap

So, can willpower bring oneself out of depression? What's your take on that issue?

Intent could simply be a mental/neurological response to some stimuli. — Harry Hindu

Interesting, care to expand?

When we become aware of present situations we modify our intentions to address the situation. We also plan ahead, and when that goal is in the mind we use the present situation to choose a course of action that will get us to our goal. It's basically like an IF-THEN statement in goal-oriented decision-making.

Here's an interesting article:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2015.00395/full

..which is part of a series of articles submitted specifically for this topic:
https://www.frontiersin.org/research-topics/2705/from-intentions-to-actions-psychological-and-neural-processes#articles

So, can willpower bring oneself out of depression? What's your take on that issue?

I think it can but it isn't necessary. Eg. you can have a family forcibly take you to a therapist every week and do the CBT homework in a case where you don't have the will to do it yourself. This can, over time, lead to a habit of going there. The willpower, which is needed most in the beginning when you need to effectively force yourself out of a habit of self-seclusion and negative self-talk, is not needed as much once it's become a habit to go to the therapist and work on the exercises.

But if one has the willpower to do it alone, then it could lead to the same effect.