That's because zero is not attainable in those other items. — andrewk
Guess you live in a cave without air conditioning, medicine, factory farmed meat, and electronics...oh wait, you're chatting with us here. Hm, how does that figure into "naturalness" and doing things exactly like we always have for millennia? — NKBJ
This is probably due to an excessive emotional implication; — DiegoT
you don't show the slightest humility about any potential alternatives to your own blindly fundamentalist dogma — Isaac
Naturalness and "doing things exactly like we always have for millennia" are not synonymous. — Isaac
However, veganism is not ethically sound as it implies the destruction of a huge part of the human phenomenon and the human soul, incarnated in these life forms and the ways in which we engage with them culturally and personally — DiegoT
I think perhaps the zero issue becomes associated with veganism because some of the most vociferous campaigners are zero perfectionists — andrewk
We are more confident of the limits of an animals intellect than we are about the disabled. — Xav
We can't really justify not sending all our money to the 3rd world or halting society until we all have equal privilege, but we do. Fairness is a fairy tale. — Xav
In this post you have shifted from solely criticising people being vegan to also criticising people campaigning for veganism. — andrewk
Never flying disqualifies one from most interesting jobs, some of which are jobs in which one can do far more to reduce greenhouse pollution than if one didn't do the job and didn't ever fly. Furthermore one can buy carbon offsets for one's flights and, if one does some research, ensure that they are genuine, meaningful reductions in emissions. Minimisation is the only practical possibility here. — andrewk
Never using anything that may involve conflict materials such as rare earth elements form the Congo makes it almost impossible to use a computer. — andrewk
Not buying things from companies that may not have clean supply chains for human rights is not practical in some cases, since most major retailers sell some products that don't conform to that, and for many goods it is impossible to trace the entire supply chain, including that of all tools, transport arrangements and so on that are used in supporting the supply. — andrewk
Yes, I remember that. In reply I pointed out that veganism is a practice, not a philosophy, so trying to critique it as a philosophy is a category error.In fact I've made it very clear in just about every post that I'm talking about the philosophy 'veganism' — Isaac
When more than 50 per cent of the world's population is vegan, we can start worrying about that. I don't think that will happen in the lifetime of anybody currently alive.If we all stopped..... — Isaac
You mean like the careful, respectful, slow, incremental way that we introduced factory farming and modern industrial agriculture more generally?veganism is suggesting we attack the problems in these systems not by carefully and respectfully making small changes — Isaac
Yes, I remember that. In reply I pointed out that veganism is a practice, not a philosophy, so trying to critique it as a philosophy is a category error. — andrewk
When more than 50 per cent of the world's population is vegan, we can start worrying about that. I don't think that will happen in the lifetime of anybody currently alive. — andrewk
You mean like the careful, respectful, slow, incremental way that we introduced factory farming and modern industrial agriculture more generally? — andrewk
Only on uptake at a level that is way beyond what we know would ever occur. If you reflect on it, I think you'll find that a great deal of moral advocacy that people do would cause terrible disruption if everybody took its advice. They are aimed at increasing the number of people doing whatever it is, confident in the knowledge that, at best, the proportion may increase from a small minority to a medium-sized minority. It's perfectly sensible. It's just pragmatism.why would you advocate a moral system which relies on a failure in uptake — Isaac
No. Veganism is a diet. Look it up. There are many different reasons why people are vegan, only some of which have anything to do with ethics, and there is more than one ethical angle that leads to a vegan diet. We've been over this already.Veganism is a philosophy because it makes ethical statements and ethics is part of philosophy. — Isaac
Evangelical ethics-based vegans may make 'ought' statements about it, — andrewk
Perhaps you're referring to discussions you've had elsewhere, because looking back over your interactions on this thread, your only interaction with a vegan is with NKBJ, and your criticism of them doesn't touch on whom they would like to see adopting veganism, but rather is about the issue of how comparable adopting veganism for ethical reasons is to other ethically-driven harm-reduction activities.And thus far, these are the only sorts of vegans I have encountered posting about the subject on philosophy forums (our current medium of discourse). I don't argue this way with everyone I meet who happens to be a vegan. — Isaac
If someone has been arguing in this thread that nobody, anywhere, ever, should eat meat - not even indigenous hunter gatherers - then I've missed it. Perhaps you could point it out. — andrewk
our morals forbid us to harm or kill. — TheMadFool
Veganism is about the commitment to reducing suffering. — NKBJ
It's just an obvious, easy choice that others are too stubborn to make. — NKBJ
It's a paradox for omnis who want to maintain that they care about animals, believe less suffering is better than more suffering, and yet willingly contribute to the meat industry. — NKBJ
If you avoid animal products, you're avoiding engaging in a bad act. — NKBJ
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