Faith is venturing something on a belief you don’t definitively know to be true. If you skydive, you don’t definitively know your parachute has been packed correctly; you make the jump because you both reason, and have faith, that it has been. — AJJ
So, if we agree that A is false, and we agree that we do not know either way, then your argument is refuted — S
And if we agree that A is false, but we don't agree that we do not know either way, implying that you know otherwise, then the burden is on you — S
how is that ?? How is my claim that theism is not it conflict with fact, if in fact we do not know what the fact is ?? — Rank Amateur
Theism, as defined is not in direct conflict with fact. — Rank Amateur
disagree - in this case to refute my argument that it is not in conflict with fact - it would have to be shown that God is not - that burden is on you, — Rank Amateur
what you want this to be is a case I am not making - namely It is a matter of fact that God is or is not, and you want me to say "God is" - for now at lest the 5th time that is not the case I am making - nor need to make to argue theism is reasonable — Rank Amateur
If so sure - but jumped to the assumption most on here know the classic theist arguments. - didn't feel i needed to state them. Can if I need to. — Rank Amateur
Either that, or you are being very unclear with your wording, as that's what it looks like you're saying. — S
No, it's not the mere presence of these arguments that sustains yours though is it? It's the conclusion that they are reasonable arguments. I'm asking you why you have not felt the need justify your belief that these arguments themselves are reasonable. You obviously feel the need to justify the conclusion that your argument for theism is reasonable, you don't merely state that it is. — Isaac
ok - now using your definition of fact, here are all the options
1. It is not a matter of fact that God is, or is not - Theism can not be in conflict with fact if it is not a matter of fact — Rank Amateur
2. It is a matter of fact that God is or God is not - then God is not as fact refutes my argument - make the case, or God is and theism is not in conflict with fact — Rank Amateur
that is all the cases of your logic - if you want to go down this road the only option that causes my proposition to fail is: god is or is not a matter of fact, and in fact God is not - feel free to make the case. — Rank Amateur
Yes, I agree with that logic. However, I reject the premise as false. — S
And this is your argument from ignorance where you attempt to shift the burden from you to me. — S
further to above - my original argument was 1. above that it is not a matter of fact. — Rank Amateur
In my skydiving example you would be choosing to have faith that your parachute was packed correctly. Would that necessarily be unreasonable? — AJJ
where you absent in philosophy class when they talked about logical arguments ? It is my proposition as true - it stands as true unless you can show it is not - how this stuff works — Rank Amateur
because .... you can not just dismiss a premise because you don' t like it - make a case — Rank Amateur
1. It is not a matter of fact that God is, or is not - Theism can not be in conflict with fact if it is not a matter of fact
— Rank Amateur
Yes, I agree with that logic. However, I reject the premise as false. — S
2. It is a matter of fact that God is or God is not - then God is not as fact refutes my argument - make the case, or God is and theism is not in conflict with fact
— Rank Amateur
And this is your argument from ignorance where you attempt to shift the burden from you to me.
The possibility alone refutes your argument. You would have to demonstrate that God exists, otherwise your claim that there isn't a conflict with fact is completely unwarranted. Unless you do so, it's either 1) possible that there's a conflict, and if it's possible, then you can't justifiably say that there isn't one, or 2) there definitely is a conflict, as the only other alternative left unaddressed is that God doesn't exist.
I don't think I can make it any clearer than that. It's on you now. — S
no - I gave you all the options of YOUR logic you need to treat all of the as a whole.
If as YOU state it is a matter of fact that God is there are only 2 possibilies
1 - god is ( if that is the case theism is not in conflict with fact)
2. god is not ( if that is the case theism is in conflict with fact)
This is YOUR case - not mine - mine is it is not a matter of fact that you have dismissed without reason and which I have generously let you.
so decide in YOUR case is it 1 or 2 there are no other options in YOUR case - make the argument — Rank Amateur
what did i miss that supports this last sentence ?? — Rank Amateur
A is false because, as defined by you, God is some form of supernatural being or entity, and whether or not there exists some form of supernatural being or entity is a matter of fact. You seemed to suggest that God could be outside of the space time plane we exist in - but that's nonsense. You also seemed to conflate reality with our perception of reality - an error. Matters of fact do not depend on our perception. Or, if you think otherwise, I'm alright with retracting that claim for a weaker claim and allowing you to present an argument. — S
Of course it's a big ask! If I thought that it was reasonable, as distinguished from being based on reason, then I might be a theist. A reasonable argument, by my meaning, is a sound argument. And I am not aware of any argument that I'm convinced is sound. That rules out theism for me, and leaves scepticism or strong atheism. — S
no - I gave you all the options of YOUR logic you need to treat all of the as a whole.
If as YOU state it is a matter of fact that God is there are only 2 possibilies
1 - god is ( if that is the case theism is not in conflict with fact)
2. god is not ( if that is the case theism is in conflict with fact)
This is YOUR case - not mine - mine is it is not a matter of fact that you have dismissed without reason and which I have generously let you.
so decide in YOUR case is it 1 or 2 there are no other options in YOUR case - make the argument — Rank Amateur
A is false because, as defined by you, God is some form of supernatural being or entity, and whether or not there exists some form of supernatural being or entity is a matter of fact. You seemed to suggest that God could be outside of the space time plane we exist in - but that's nonsense. You also seemed to conflate reality with our perception of reality - an error. Matters of fact do not depend on our perception. Or, if you think otherwise, I'm alright with retracting that claim for a weaker claim and allowing you to present an argument. — S
No no no Mate - You really really want this to be an argument that GOD is and want me to support it.
I HAVE NOT MADE THAT ARGUMENT - I have stated in P1 that theism exists - and defined it, you are arguing my definition or theism as is believed by theists. I did not say the definition was true - i just said that it is believed by theists.
The only truth claim in that whole P that I am making is " Theism exists" do you feel that is untrue ?
You cant just go to a pile of words - pick some you want to argue - and make a whole new argument that you want to have instead of the one that was made. — Rank Amateur
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