What do you think you get for £13billion membership fee, £4billion in fish, £4billion in benefits to EU citizens, and a £95billion deficit in traded goods? — Inis

Right on cue! :clap:

Right on cue! — S

There never is an answer though.

There never is an answer though. — Inis

You must have a short memory. Perhaps a look back through the pages of this discussion will refresh it.

You must have a short memory. Perhaps a look back through the pages of this discussion will refresh it. — S

If UK received anything of value in return approaching that huge financial burden, then why does no other EU country pay a similar penalty?

If UK received anything of value in return approaching that huge financial burden, then why does no other EU country pay a similar penalty? — Inis

That's a separate issue. I am not required to explain that. It is known that the UK does receive substantial economic value from our relationship with the EU, as many credibly sourced statistics indicate. And many credible and authoritative sources have concluded that we'll be better off in than out. Like I told you before, you can cherry pick all you like, but I'm not foolish enough to be tricked like that.

It is known that the UK does receive substantial economic value from our relationship with the EU, as many credibly sourced statistics indicate. — S

Less than 8% of UK GDP depends on selling goods to EU, according to the EU Commission.

What an interesting discussion you've been having since I've been gone. Quick, now babble until we're on page 18:

The 2016 referendum was corrupt and anti democratic in about six...teen different ways. As already stated, Cameron was a long term eurosceptic who defied the expressed will of Parliament to provide for a referendum entirely on his own recog - as a manifesto commitment no-one could obstruct. I've explained how his immigration pledge and renegotiation sabotaged his credibility, even as he appointed himself chief spokesman for Remain. And that's saying nothing of the rumour he once fucked a pig!

But take your pick from a menu of other anti-democratic elements:

Take the fact Cameron told the public, the result of a legally advisory referendum would be implemented, thereby forcing the hand of Parliament, in relation to the chaos caused by a screeching racist and absurdly false propaganda campaign, stolen facebook data, Russian interference, financial corruption. And that's to say nothing of the brutal murder of an MP during the campaign - threats to march on Parliament, and judges declared "enemies of the people" in the media. Add to that the fact that the official Leave campaign was outsourced to an unaccountable rabid right wing economic policy pressure group called the Tax Payer's Alliance, while the Remain campaign was kept in house, and controlled by Cameron and his aide, Craig Oliver.

Skip forward to today, and Cameron's Home Secretary - who cancelled the EU-ID card scheme that would have given the UK control, sacked the head of the borders agency, Brodie Clarke, and allowed 660,000 immigrants into the country in 2015, and published those figures in the campaign period - is now pressing on with brexit based on a corrupt referendum, a marginal 52%/48% vote, rejected by MP's, rejected by the House of Lords - then I fail to see how the term "democracy" applies.

and:


Too much credit? Credit is given where it's due. Cameron has a first class degree in politics from Oxford, and cut his teeth in politics as advisor to eurosceptic MP Micheal Howard. In 2005, Cameron wrote a manifesto for Howard, that contains Leave campaign rhetoric word for word, relating immigration and EU membership - and demanding an in/out referendum.

Cameron provided for that referendum 10 years later - but we are supposed to believe he didn't really want to. People are led to believe he was forced into it by the rise of UKIP - a tiny anti immigrant party who were absolutely nowhere until Cameron's absurd immigration pledge, and who were never a threat to Cameron because we vote in constituencies - not nationally. Given that's factually wrong - why do people believe it? And how can anyone imagine Cameron believed his immigration pledge - to which he added, "or vote me out."

Credit where credit is due - Cameron worked all his political life for this, and he got what he wanted. The idea a man with a first in PPE from Oxford, who rose like a rocket through the ranks of the Conservative Party to become PM, 'fell out of the EU by accident' is absurd on the face of it. It's not incompetence, it's genius. Only, criminal genius.

The 2016 referendum was corrupt and anti democratic in about six...teen different ways. — karl stone

Ah yes, those six...teen mysterious ways.

Less than 8% of UK GDP depends on selling goods to EU, according to the EU Commission. — Inis

That's a lovely cherry. Where did you pick it? I think you've shown it to me before. Is your plan to keep showing me it until I'm brainwashed?

:yawn:

From page 1:

Sorry, I'm not a conspiracy nut. — S

Baden did a better job of arguing that the referendum was invalid or undemocratic or however it's to be worded, and I don't agree with him, so I definitely don't agree with you. I do accept that there were lies, campaign overspending, a relatively close result (Leave actually got 1,269,501 more votes), but I don't think that that's a sufficient reason, so I reach a different conclusion, and that's that.

Less than 8% of UK GDP depends on selling goods to EU, according to the EU Commission.
— Inis

That's a lovely cherry. Where did you pick it? — S

It's a petty small figure isn't it. Definitely cherry rather than pineapple. Perhaps it reflects the fact that a lot of The UK GDP is for local consumption. I think this indicates that the peasants still have far too much money to spend.

Less than 8% of UK GDP depends on selling goods to EU, according to the EU Commission. — Inis

So...? About half of the UK's total trade is with the EU:
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7851

That's a lovely cherry. Where did you pick it? I think you've shown it to me before. Is your plan to keep showing me it until I'm brainwashed? — S

The EU Commission, but there are plenty of sources, e.g:

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Intra-EU_trade_in_goods_-_recent_trends

Now all you need to do is calculate the percentage of UK GDP this represents. The number you will get is less than 8%.

So...? — Baden

So it looks very small in isolation, so that's how he's going to present it, and he's just going to keep repeating this stuff, and doing stuff like this, as he has continually been doing, despite objections, because he's here to spread propaganda, and so he should be banned or at least given a warning if he hasn't already.

So...? About half of the UK's total trade is with the EU: — Baden

Total trade with the EU sits at about 44% of GDP and falling, but that is irrelevant. UK pays money to the EU, gives up its fish and pays £4billion in benefits to EU Citizens, in return for access to the Common Market in traded goods. There is effectively no Common Market in services.

I suppose it's possible that like Terrapin he thinks we're all morons, in which case maybe both of them should get a room and work at repopulating the world with geniuses.

What percentage of UK GDP depends on selling goods to non-EU countries, for comparison?

I suppose it's possible that like Terrapin he thinks we're all morons in which case maybe both of them should get a room and work at repopulating the world with geniuses. — Baden

Terrapin is worth at least about a hundred of this guy. He's no where near as bad as him.

What percentage of UK GDP depends on selling goods to non-EU countries for comparison? — S

UK runs a surplus in traded goods with the rest of the world, and its most profitable trading partner is the USA, with which the UK returns a trade surplus of £34billion.

When the UK can trade with who it wants, under the terms it agrees, the economic growth will be phenomenal. Open free-trading democracies always beat protectionist customs unions.

That's not an answer. You're a con artist. Let's look at UK trade with the US compared to UK trade with the EU:

[A]s a union of 27 other countries, the EU still had a much greater share of UK exports than the US in 2016 (43% compared with 18%). A report in the FT showed how for almost every category of goods exported, the EU was by far a bigger market than the US. — Office for National Statistics

From an article titled, 'Who does the UK trade with?', 3rd January 2018.

When the UK can trade with who it wants, under the terms it agrees, the economic growth will be phenomenal. — Inis

Growth is important, but so are other factors, including and especially net profit. You don't give a credible overall assessment. You either don't have the skill set or the level of skills required, or you're just choosing to avoid it and be purposefully selective instead. When it comes to overall economic forecasts, it will be Inis vs. most economic authorities. I know who I'm siding with.

That's not an answer. You're a con artist. Let's look at UK trade with the US compared to UK trade with the EU: — S

UK trades more with the rest of the World than the EU. This is obvious since UK trade with EU accounts for 44% of GDP, despite the paltry 8% of GDP in traded goods.

Trade with USA accounts for the greatest trade with any other country, and it is massively profitable. With every EU country, UK runs a trade deficit, apart from Ireland. In fact UK deficit with Germany is totally offset by UK trade with USA.

However, Uk does not have to pay £13billion to trade with USA.

UK trades more with the rest of the World than the EU. This is obvious since UK trade with EU accounts for 44% of GDP — Inis

You cherry-picked the statistics again. 44% represents exports only. 53% of all imports come from the EU.

You cherry-picked the statistics again. 44% represents exports only. 53% of all imports come from the EU. — Baden

No.

According to the Office for National Statistics, UK total trade with the EU was £622billion in 2017, which includes imports, exports, goods and services.

Trade with the Rest of the Words was £650billion, which includes exports, imports, goods and services.

650+622=1272
622/1272=0.49

Therefore 49% of UK trade is with the EU not 44%.

If you don't even understand your own figures or can't read:

"The EU, taken as a whole is the UK’s largest trading partner. In 2017, UK exports to the EU were £274 billion (44% of all UK exports). UK imports from the EU were £341 billion (53% of all UK imports)."

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7851

You are not adding anything to this conversation.

You cherry-picked the statistics again. 44% represents exports only. 53% of all imports come from the EU. — Baden

As I pointed out before, he also quotes statistics relating to goods only, which excludes services. I wonder why this could be?

1. Main points

• Total UK exports of services (excluding travel, transport and banking) showed record growth in 2016, rising from £123.2 billion in 2015 to £142.7 billion in 2016, an increase of 15.8%.
  
  
• Total UK imports of services (excluding travel, transport and banking) also showed record growth in 2016 and rose by £10.2 billion to a total of £68.7 billion, an increase of 17.4%.
  
  
• The information and communication sector showed the largest growth in 2016 for both UK exports and imports of services in 2016, rising by £6.5 billion and £5.1 billion respectively.
  
  
• The European Union was the geographic area that saw the largest increases in total UK exports and imports of services with rises of £9.2 billion and £5.0 billion respectively in 2016.
  
  
• UK exports of financial services products made the largest contribution to the rise in 2016 increasing from £14.9 billion in 2015 to £18.4 billion.

4. Around half of UK trade in services in 2016 was with Europe

Europe has traditionally been a major destination for UK exports of services, accounting for slightly below half of total services exports in 2016. The value of UK exports (excluding the travel, transport and banking sectors) to Europe have followed an upward trend in recent years and showed record growth in 2016 of 17.8%, rising by £10,567 million to a peak of £70,085 million.

Growth in UK exports to Europe has been more subdued in recent years, with annual increases of 2.7% (2014) and 1.4% (2015). Most of the increase in 2016 was attributable to the European Union (EU), where UK exports rose by £9,169 million to a level of £53,267 million. In terms of individual countries, the increase in exports was driven by three main countries: Germany, the Republic of Ireland and France.

The Americas and Asia were the second- and third-largest destinations for UK services exports in 2016, accounting for 28% and 17% respectively. Both regions experienced increases in 2016, with the Americas rising by £5,622 million to £39,675 million and Asia rising by £3,326 million to £24,778 million.

Similarly to exports, Europe is also a major source of UK services imports, accounting for above half of the total value in 2016. The value of UK imports of services originating from Europe increased by £5,227 million to £36,710 million in 2016. The increase was driven by a rise in imports from the EU, which rose by £5,013 million to £30,879 million. Germany, the Netherlands and the Republic of Ireland were the main individual countries driving the increase.

Other important regions for UK services imports were the Americas and Asia, which accounted for 27% and 16% of the total value respectively in 2016. UK imports from the Americas saw a £3,237 million rise to £18,650 million in 2016, while imports from Asia rose by £1,597 million to £10,662 million.

From an article titled, 'International trade in services, UK, 2016', released 31st January 2018.

650+622=1272
622/1272=0.49
Therefore 49% of UK trade is with the EU not 44%. — Baden

Well, figures go up and down. ONS reported 43% for 2016, the BBC claims 44% is the 2015 figure. The fact remains that UK trades more with the rest of the world, and it trades profitably with them. It does not have to pay £13billion to do this, give away £4billion in fish, or pay £4billion in benefits for the privilage.

I was using your figures. According to which you are wrong. Which is an odd position to be in.

He also quotes statistics relating to goods only, which excludes services. I wonder why this could be? — S

It is the government that reports that trade with EU accounted for 43% of UK economy in 2016.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21

I was using your figures. According to which you are wrong. Which is an odd position to be in. — Baden

They aren't my figures. Latest reporting from the government indicates that only 43% of UK trade, and falling, is with EU.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21

That is a red herring, which is an informal logical fallacy.

My point was that the figure you quote, that 8% (although it's actually 7.4%) is relating to goods only, at the exclusion of services, and I've also pointed out that you don't quote the equivalent statistic for non-EU countries, leaving us with nothing to compare it to. That is cherry picking, another informal logical fallacy.

Do you not care that you're committing informal logical fallacies? You only care about spreading propaganda? If so, I think that it's about time that you were banned.