Then why the heck have you been quoting figures relating to trade and profit? Have you completely lost your mind? — S
You do like cherry picking your statistics don't you? How's GDP growth doing as compared to other countries and the GDP projection? — Benkei
Not at all. I'm saying that a man with a first class degree in philosophy politics and economics has no beliefs, no principles and no morals. I'm saying that neither Cameron or May give a fig about anything but their own position and their own power and status.
I'm saying Cameron wanted a referendum because he was losing support to Ukip, not because he had an opinion about the EU. I'm saying that hatred of the EU has been manufactured over years to divert attention from the real causes of the social degradation that has been taking place. We got a bad deal over fishing, because the people negotiating for us cared more about banking and insurance, and for them fish was a price worth paying. The British government has presided over regional decline, and impoverishment, and blamed it on the EU and Johnny foreigner. They really don't care about in or out, deal or no deal, because their world is tucked away on the Cayman Islands and won't be affected. — unenlightened
do you have any more than circumstantial evidence for it? — karl stone
You do like cherry picking your statistics don't you? How's GDP growth doing as compared to other countries and the GDP projection?
Furthermore, it's hard to compare a counterfactual with reality but whatever the UK economy is doing now (during a general worldwide economic upswing) we don't know what it would've done if it hadn't voted in favour of Brexit. Expectations is it would've done better, which is why you see GBP currency pairs with major currencies such as EUR and USD trade consistently at lower exchange rates as it expresses the expectation that interest rates in Britain will rise in order to stimulate the economy and avoid deflation. The benefit is of course that exports will be cheaper but despite that, which should make UK products and services more interesting but at the same time the UK lags in GDP growth.
Meanwhile, a lot of companies in the UK have effectuated their contigency planning, which doesn't bode well for the economy either. http://www.cbi.org.uk/news/8-out-of-10-businesses-say-brexit-hits-investment-as-speed-of-talks-outpaced-by-reality-firms-face-on-ground/ — Benkei
No.
Well I could probably muster some evidence that the EU is not responsible for the woes it is credited with, because - well it just isn't a monolith by design, but a common bureaucracy controlled by the negotiations and agreements between nations. The democratic deficit is put there to restrict its power, not to augment it. If you look at what the UK has accepted, and what it has rejected, I think you will find support for it being the UK government's concern to protect its financial powers more than its industrial; Hull can die as long as London thrives is UK policy, not EU. — unenlightened
brexit will disadvantage the very people fooled into voting for it the most - to protect a sovereignty that has been protected at their expense, creating the very discontent upon which the Leave campaign preyed, — karl stone
I think we're so much on the same page that I won't quibble.
brexit will disadvantage the very people fooled into voting for it the most - to protect a sovereignty that has been protected at their expense, creating the very discontent upon which the Leave campaign preyed,
— karl stone
This, conspiracy or mere tragedy, is the heart of the matter. And here is the connection with the US. Who knew til the shutdown that middle class Americans were just one pay check away from penury and food banks? And their 'take back control' hero was Trump!
Wouldn't you say though that the real problem is that the game of monopoly has reached its end, the winners have taken all, and the game is over. — unenlightened
Well I found something of a connection that makes your conspiracy theory a bit more likely...
2012. https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/jcb-boss-sir-anthony-bamford-named-in-cash-for-cameron-scandal/8628352.article
2019. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/24/jcb-paid-boris-johnson-10000-three-days-before-speech?CMP=fb_gu&fbclid=IwAR0I6CGObVxEOWvnFCOQN1q-Z8dUWrdiIYzutOkT0KOv3vjOUpwaZHoyff8
The same fellow supporting remain and leave champions is a bit suspicious... — unenlightened
From an economic point of view Brexit sucks for every party involved. For instance, for the Netherlands, where I live, it can have an effect of up to 1.2% of GDP. That's 10 billion EUR in costs. — Benkei
Fuck it, screw the foolhardy masses who voted to leave. Let's work towards reversing it in a way that'll minimise the fallout. — S
Yes. I want you to stop misrepresenting the facts all the time by cherry picking data and spreading misleading or false information. On the UK contribution: — Benkei
Those who voted Leave, the vast majority of them knew little or nothing about politics - and they were deceived. This isn't a matter of 'the foolhardy masses' - this is a matter of political corruption. — karl stone
The people who voted Leave did so because they want to live in a functioning democracy. — Inis
Also, there was not a single argument to Remain, other than fear mongering, and that's not really an argument. — Inis
When the UK can chart its own destiny, make its own trade deals, set its own taxes and regulations, escape the protectionist tariff barriers, it will once again become an economic powerhouse and a bulwark against the burgeoning totalitarianism engulfing Europe. — Inis
Those who voted Leave, the vast majority of them knew little or nothing about politics - and they were deceived. This isn't a matter of 'the foolhardy masses' - this is a matter of political corruption. — karl stone
How do you know this? Fact is, you don't. — karl stone
Nearly half (49%) of leave voters said the biggest single reason for wanting to leave the EU was “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”. One third (33%) said the main reason was that leaving “offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.” Just over one in eight (13%) said remaining would mean having no choice “about how the EU expanded its membership or its powers in the years ahead.” Only just over one in twenty (6%) said their main reason was that “when it comes to trade and the economy, the UK would benefit more from being outside the EU than from being part of it.”
There was no Remain campaign. Cameron was a brexiteer - who sabotaged his credibility and lost on purpose for Remain — karl stone
I know it because I know many people who voted Leave, and through the extensive research done by polling organisations. e.g.
Nearly half (49%) of leave voters said the biggest single reason for wanting to leave the EU was “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”. One third (33%) said the main reason was that leaving “offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.” Just over one in eight (13%) said remaining would mean having no choice “about how the EU expanded its membership or its powers in the years ahead.” Only just over one in twenty (6%) said their main reason was that “when it comes to trade and the economy, the UK would benefit more from being outside the EU than from being part of it.” — Inis
That is the opposite of the truth. Cameron was a staunch Remainer, campaigned strongly for remain, and there are literally 100s of videos on youtube that captured the historical record. e.g. — Inis
British people don't want to be part of a burgeoning fascist state with its own army. — Inis
OK So the membership fee is closer to £14billion. — Inis
EU still takes £4billion in fish from UK waters. — Inis
The deficit in traded goods is still £95billion. — Inis
EU citizens still take £4billion in benefits. — Inis
David Cameron campaigned for Remain. — Inis
Ah yes, the mercantilist whining about a trade deficit. This is a Basic problem: people don't know or understand international trade and how beneficial it actually is. You only have to say that a) there's a trade deficit and b) foreigners are taking the jobs, and people go straight into believing the lies that trade barriers and "protection" of your domestic industry is the way to go.I get it. Uk must pay £13billion membership fee, £4billion in fish, £4billion in benefits to EU citizens, and suffer a £95billion deficit in traded goods, so your country can benefit to the tune of EUR10billion?
Anything else you want? — Inis
David Cameron pretended to campaign for Remain - but was in fact a brexiteer. He lost on purpose. — karl stone
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