David Cameron pretended to campaign for Remain - but was in fact a brexiteer. He lost on purpose.
— karl stone
You have zero evidence for your baseless fantastical claim.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/21/donald-tusk-warned-david-cameron-about-stupid-eu-referendum-bbc — Inis
Cameron told obvious lies by which he further sabotaged any residual credibility he brought to the Remain cause. — karl stone
did nothing to counter the egregious lies and racist propaganda of the Leave campaign. — karl stone
Karl, you're not making a great case here. Leave won by lying; but remain deliberately lost by lying. — unenlightened
Sounds similar to when we had the join EU debate in this country.Karl, you're not making a great case here. Leave won by lying; but remain deliberately lost by lying. — unenlightened
Sounds similar to when we had the join EU debate in this country.
The "Join" crowd painted a picture of the gates of paradise opening with EU membership and the "Don't join" crowd painted a picture of utter doom, perdition with the end of our independence. Back then the old politicians with warm ties to Russia dominated the "Don't join" crowd (so things have some continuity at least here).
Neither side was anywhere near being correct, but their lies live on. The realistic prediction that "things actually won't change so much for the ordinary person and from the viewpoint of the ordinary person" would have been far better, but who would campaign with that kind of slogan? — ssu
Besides, the Dutch pay per capita (that means per person) a lot more to the EU than the British do (Benkei has explained), so again a questionmark on your crying about payments to EU. — ssu
I cannot equate defrauding of the politically ignorant with the idea of 'the foolhardy masses.' I have a long term fascination with politics - but don't ask me anything about football. Is that foolhardy? No. You could easily deceive me into believing the ball was in - or offside, or whatever. It's just ignorance. And the Leave campaign played upon real grievances and concerns. The lie was that those real issues are the fault of the EU, and can be resolved by brexit. Those who voted Leave, the vast majority of them knew little or nothing about politics - and they were deceived. This isn't a matter of 'the foolhardy masses' - this is a matter of political corruption. — karl stone
With regards to surplus and deficit with trade partners , why is a deficit "bad" and a surplus "good"? I ask, because if one is continually selling and not buying, then what is the point of selling? — Kippo
I cannot equate defrauding of the politically ignorant with the idea of 'the foolhardy masses.' I have a long term fascination with politics - but don't ask me anything about football. Is that foolhardy? No. You could easily deceive me into believing the ball was in - or offside, or whatever. It's just ignorance. And the Leave campaign played upon real grievances and concerns. The lie was that those real issues are the fault of the EU, and can be resolved by brexit. Those who voted Leave, the vast majority of them knew little or nothing about politics - and they were deceived. This isn't a matter of 'the foolhardy masses' - this is a matter of political corruption.
— karl stone
Blameworthy ignorance. You shouldn't be so gullible as to allow yourself to be easily deceived, and if you're going to get involved in the game, then you should at least do your homework. Many people were motivated to vote leave because of their own nationalist and anti-establishment sentiment. Some people don't listen to reason. Some people block it out. Some people believe what they want to believe. — S
The desire for this referendum does not originate with the people. It originates within the Tory Party. — karl stone
Actually, the campaign for an EU referendum can be traced back to 2011 when the cross-party People's Pledge group was formed. They took no position on EU membership, other than it should be put to the people. In 2011 a petition of 100,000 signatures calling for an EU referendum was handed into Downing Street. — Inis
You mean "they" shouldn't be so ignorant... — karl stone
You mean "they" shouldn't be so ignorant...
— karl stone
No, I meant you, following on from your football analogy. But yes, them too. — S
Ah, okay - I see what you did there. No, I don't get involved in football. I don't play football, and I don't talk about it - because I don't know the first thing about it. Could you imagine me in the pub, shouting the odds at a crowd of football fans who have followed the game all their lives. That's what brexiteers are like. — karl stone
The common Brexiteer is living proof that Neanderthals didn't go extinct all those years ago. — S
And what happened? Parliament debated it - and voted against holding a referendum by 485/111. — karl stone
So why did Cameron promise a referendum in 2013, — karl stone
I urge you to try - just for laughs, but I assure you - you'd be wasting your time. — karl stone
I urge you to try - just for laughs, but I assure you - you'd be wasting your time.
— karl stone
Is Riccardo suggesting that countries cooperate in order to maximise the total output? — Kippo
And what happened? Parliament debated it - and voted against holding a referendum by 485/111.
— karl stone
Cameron voted against a referendum in 2011.
So why did Cameron promise a referendum in 2013,
— karl stone
Because UKIP were at 10% in the polls. — Inis
That's not true. — karl stone
That's not true.
— karl stone
Your constant fabrications have become tedious.
Cameron voted against an EU referendum in 2011.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/divisions/pw-2011-10-24-372-commons/mp/10777 — Inis
That's not true. Cameron had been agitating for a referendum since he wrote the 2005 Conservative Party manifesto for Micheal Howard - using leave campaign rhetoric, word for word. UKIP were nowhere at that time. In a 2009 youtube video Cameron again demanded a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, and made the same demand again in his 2010 manifesto - alongside his non-credible tens of thousands immigration pledge. — karl stone
David Cameron is a cunning political creature, but not infallible. He was just being a chameleon out of self-interest. He was working for Michael Howard, someone who is well-known to be a strong Eurosceptic. Then, given his prior role in producing this kind of politics, and given his now vindicated belief that an EU referendum would be a pledge which would contribute towards his party winning the general election, which they did under him in 2010, he was just latching on to what he judged to be a winning strategy. Likewise with his pledge on reducing immigration to the tens of thousands. The more plausible explanation is that he simply judged making such pledges to be winning strategies. — S
Cameron didn't win the 2010 election though. — karl stone
Meanwhile, by championing Remain, Cameron put himself on the wrong side of his own failure on immigration - in a referendum he alone decided would happen, and forced on an unwilling Parliament? — karl stone
Oh, don't be so predictable. — S
The facts are the facts. — karl stone
But as you speak of predictability - is there any possibility at all that you would not dismiss an argument that suggested the 2016 referendum was corrupt - and agree that a legitimate democratic result cannot follow from a corrupt process? — karl stone
If not the fact that Cameron was a brexiteer who campaigned dishonestly and lost on purpose for Remain... — karl stone
...how about stolen facebook data used to target propaganda that incited racial hatred, or how about financial corruption and Russian interference? — karl stone
My prediction is, that wouldn't change your mind either! — karl stone
It seems to me like a lot of people want to talk about what they think they see in the fog. At night. Without a light source. When they have no eyes. — Mr Phil O'Sophy
Yes, and pedantry is pedantry. If you think that I didn't know the outcome, and that I meant that the Tories won an overall majority in 2010, instead of it resulting in a hung parliament, then you're an idiot. Do I have to word everything I say as though I'm speaking to an idiot when I'm speaking with you? — S
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