Right, I see, so you thought this conversation was about teaching Karl Marx to toddlers. — Baden
Read it again. That was just an example he gave as to how we should handle teaching gender-neutrality to children. — Harry Hindu
I've not mentioned Marx, but usually Marx isn't far behind in these conversations about gender. It usually goes down as some argument that the existing power structure is wanting to maintain its control over its resources to subjugate the masses, all having been brought about by capitalist greed. Removing gender based pronouns is somehow the first step in pushing against the power structure. No longer will I be benefited by having a penis, and so I fight viciously to protect my power position. — Hanover
If a girl decides not to take wood shop, is it a result of her own personal preference, or only because of some kind of societal pressure? How can you know? — Harry Hindu
Most men I know have simply grown tired of the glaring incongruity in public gender discourse. This campaign (and I'd even say feminine campaign) to redefine masculinity antagonistically conflates the excesses of masculine traits with masculinity itself. Meanwhile, a comparable critique of femininity is intolerable misogyny — Roke
Case closed. — Echarmion
I have, alas, concluded that this is not enough of a philosophy forum to cope with this topic, a fear which I expressed in the op. So I have indeed closed the case for my own part. But I am not going to be dogmatic about it, and if you or anyone wants to bring forward something of interest, I will still be following, and will try to respond. — unenlightened
Why not? There are 300 lb women, are there not? — Arkady
Why couldn't a 300 lb linebacker suffer from gender dysmorphia? — Arkady
I am a man. Therefore however I behave is manly behaviour.
Men behave thus and so. Therefore anyone who does not behave thus and so is not a proper man.
Therefore I am not a proper man, therefore I have the wrong body.
No. Nature and the fact that you have a penis, which is different than a woman, who has a vagina, is what allows you all to be equally men.Gender neutrality allows that your linebacker, Stephen Hawking, unenlightened the gobshite weakling, and Bitter Crank the gay icon, are all equally men, and thus equally masculine, no matter how many women we are not stronger than, or how we choose to waste our time. — unenlightened
Mine wasn't an aruement from hypocrisy. I'm saying that the application of his arguement is inconsistent. He's essentially preaching to the choir. Think of it this way: you go to the emergency room with a splinter in your finger and a bullet in your chest. The doctor thinks that the splinter is the more serious threat and completely ignores the bullet wound. Unenlightened simply isn't being intellectually honest or consistent.The "argument from hypocrisy" is not an argument, but rather a thinly veiled ad-hominem. Would making the argument in Saudi Arabia or Iran somehow change the argument? — Echarmion
No. Nature and the fact that you have a penis, which is different than a woman, who has a vagina, is what allows you all to be equally men. — Harry Hindu
- @HanoverI suggested that gender neutrality issues were ideological issues, and like socialism (another such example), should not be taught from an advocacy perspective
I think I have firm grasp of language as I have been able accumulate 1.7k posts without much of a problem. The only problem I seem to be having is with the way in which you are using a certsin term - "gender". I have defined it as the equivalence of sex. You have yet to provide a consistent definition for your use of the term.It isn't us who're misunderstanding gender, it's you who are misunderstanding language and normativity. — fdrake
I assume you mean 'sex' rather than 'gender' here.Consider a high school senior who is a 300 lb linebacker. I don't think anyone wonders what this student's gender is. How does this conversation relate to him? — frank
The way that this conversation relates to him is that in a world in which gender stereotypes were not promoted, this male would be free to wear lipstick, dresses, play with dolls and other activities that gender stereotypes claim are 'feminine' without fear of being judged or otherwise looked-down on by others. — andrewk
Whats the difference? I've asked this several times. If was so easy and obvious then why can't anyone answer the question?I assume you mean 'sex' rather than 'gender' here. — andrewk
But a transgender woman (a man claiming to be a woman) does call those things feminine. It is the only way they know how to express their womanhood. Are you telling the trans person that those things are not characteristics of womanhood?The way that this conversation relates to him is that in a world in which gender stereotypes were not promoted, this male would be free to wear lipstick, dresses, play with dolls and other activities that gender stereotypes claim are 'feminine' without fear of being judged or otherwise looked-down on by others. — andrewk
So in a gender neutral school the girls will play on the varsity tackle football team or wrestling team with the boys?His ability to play American football well is one property that is part of a male gender stereotype (by the way, that stereotype no longer applies to English football (soccer) or Australian football, in which there are popular and prosperous female leagues), but implies nothing about other aspects of his behaviour. — andrewk
I'm surprised that nobody has answered it, because I believe it is very simple. Perhaps you didn't ask it quite as directly before.Whats the difference? I've asked this several times. If was so easy and obvious then why can't anyone answer the question? — Harry Hindu
Sure, if they want to.So in a gender neutral school the girls will play on the varsity tackle football team or wrestling team with the boys? — Harry Hindu
I would not presume to tell the person anything, as I am not in a position to understand their experience, much less give them advice. It has to be acknowledged that in some cases gender dysphoria of the sort you mention can come into conflict with de Beauvoir's vision of feminism, and this has caused some distress on both sides. So it behoves us to proceed carefully in areas that are vulnerable to that conflict. But I think it is possible to work to dismantle societal gender expectations without having to enter that conflict zone.a transgender woman (a man claiming to be a woman) does call those things feminine. It is the only way they know how to express their womanhood. Are you telling the trans person that those things are not characteristics of womanhood? — Harry Hindu
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