Look, Trump is a businessman. He got some very complex building projects completed without losing all his money - that's quite an achievement in itself - an achievement that is impossible if his narcissism was wholley unrestrained. This shows that he has intelligence, and he is able to collaborate with others to get things done. He is narcissistic, but not to the point where this would outright harm himself. You mistake pathological narcissism - which actually harms the one who is narcissistic - with Trump's narcissism, which doesn't harm him directly because he knows when he has to hold it back. He just knows how to work with others to get things done. One cannot easily flip-flop on deals without losing his reputation (and his money) in business.Unfortunately, I know from experience, that this is not the way narcissistic personalities work. — swstephe
This debate was a clear Trump victory — Agustino
And by the way Baden - did you see Bill's face during the debate? Priceless — Agustino
I told you my analysis, which is supported by many other people, who also think that Trump won the debate. I have no bias in this - I freely admitted Trump lost the first one. But this time, when Clinton couldn't answer even a single issue that Trump brought up - this was shameful for her.That's just factually incorrect. The only scientific poll (i.e. based on a random sampling etc) I've seen gave the debate to Clinton.
" CNN's poll found that by 57-34%, a majority of voters watching them thought she got the best of him."
Simply attacking someone doesn't win a debate. You have to come across as at least somewhat likeable. Trump played to his base, which love everything he does anyway, but made no inroads with any other demographics. Not a winning strategy. — Baden
I have no bias in this. — Agustino
Yes, Hillary lied about her emails and destroyed evidence and then was never prosecuted when others are prosecuted for doing less. She also used character assassination to silence her husbands accusers of sexual harassment and takes money from foreign governments who don't allow their women to drive or go to school. And most Hillary supporters apparently think that's normal behavior which speaks volumes about their values or lack thereof. she's effectively highlighting the hypocrisy of the so-called social liberals. That rights for women and a fair justice system have never been the driving force for the majority of this group is not something that surprises me.Yes, Trump boasted about sexually assaulting woman. And most Trump supporters apparently think that's normal behaviour, which speaks volumes about their values or lack thereof. In this sense, Trump is actually a boon - not only is he destroying one of America's political hegemonies, he's very effectively highlighting the hypocrisy of so-called social conservatives*. That moral values have never been the driving force for the majority of this group is not something that surprises me. — Baden
I have no bias in saying who won the debate(s) not in who I'd want to win the election.Come on Agustino! You have no bias in this?! — Erik
Of course it does. As we all have something to gain or lose from this. The social conservative agenda has a lot to lose if Clinton or the liberal progressives win this election. Do you not think so?Sure you're not a US citizen, but that doesn't mean your vehement dislike (hatred?) of Clinton - as the representative of the liberal progressives you detest - does not affect your judgement. — Erik
I cited a book and a study, I may as well go forth and cite Things Hidden Since the Foundation of the World which explains the theory behind mimesis. — Agustino
And the idea that it had no effect on what people thought of adultery is equally laughable. It certainly influenced what some folks thought about it, and it would be quite extreme to deny that. Do you not see so many 10-12 year olds do exactly what they see Kim Kardashian and other celebrities do? The same pattern of miming behaviour that is perceived as cool, either because it comes from a well-known leader, or otherwise, exists in adults.
And by the way Baden - did you see Bill's face during the debate? Priceless — — Augustino
Baden, are you of the mindset that words spoken are equal to actions taken? Mr. Clinton not only disrespected the highest office of my country but he allowed his wife Hillary, to go on national media and say that the women accusing Bill Clinton are a part of some right wing conspiracy.No, but I have no more pity for him than I will have for Trump when he loses. — Baden
Baden, are you of the mindset that words spoken are equal to actions taken? — ArguingWAristotleTiff
As long as Hillary is sending out Bill to campaign for her, then "diversion" or not, it makes his prior behavior or lack of judgement, while occupying the same office, fair game.So.. Tiff. Reality check. You know as well as I do what kind of man Trump is. You know as well as I do that trying to make this about Bill Clinton is a diversion. — Mongrel
Baden, are you of the mindset that words spoken are equal to actions taken? — ArguingWAristotleTiff
Mr. Clinton not only disrespected the highest office of my country but he allowed his wife Hillary, to go on national media and say that the women accusing Bill Clinton are a part of some right wing conspiracy. — ArguingWAristotleTiff
Gosh, golly gee, I wonder if Hillary would feel the same, if it was Chelsea that was being portrayed not as a victim but rather as a master manipulator. :s — ArguingWAristotleTiff
Look, Trump is a businessman. He got some very complex building projects completed without losing all his money - that's quite an achievement in itself - an achievement that is impossible if his narcissism was wholley unrestrained. This shows that he has intelligence, and he is able to collaborate with others to get things done. He is narcissistic, but not to the point where this would outright harm himself. You mistake pathological narcissism - which actually harms the one who is narcissistic - with Trump's narcissism, which doesn't harm him directly because he knows when he has to hold it back. He just knows how to work with others to get things done. One cannot easily flip-flop on deals without losing his reputation (and his money) in business. — Agustino
It doesn't matter if it's a diversion - it's the truth. Who cares why Trump is doing it? It's all true. That's what really matters. Not that Trump is trying to divert attention from the comments that he's made - that is true - but irrelevant to the discussion we have about Bill.You know as well as I do that trying to make this about Bill Clinton is a diversion. — Mongrel
What is this, some quotes from Robert Greene's 48 Laws of Power and other silly writings like that? Machiavelli's Prince? These things have no place in this world.The game that narcissists play is to make themselves look great on the surface. If you dig past the surface and uncover failures and harm, they are quick to shift blame onto others. They don't need to restrain themselves up front, they thrive off the initial attention and admiration. It is only when you get into personal relationships that all the flaws come out. Then you are stuck -- it is either "my way or the highway". — swstephe
I so disagree with this. If you have that attitude in business you won't survive much - you'll be gone in no time. First, you will easily find people who worship you on the surface so they can dig you. If you're a narcissist, you're a weak target for such folk - especially, I should say, women who seek to seduce you and later use this against you. Second, you will alienate people, and you will develop a reputation for alienating people - soon very few are going to want to work with you, and some of those who do want to work with you will actually want to hurt you rather than help you. The big secret is that Trump doesn't blow up at the slightest negative comment, nor does he come up with threats. I've watched him. When he's talking with someone who is in a superior position to him, or someone whom he needs, he's very respectful, and he always bows down - he's almost servile. That's how he is when he talks with bankers for example. Now - he does create this persona of greatness and superiority with folks whom he has control over - this explosive, and uncontrollable persona. But this is only helpful to him - because when he actually talks with a banker, and he is servile, it gives off the impression "Oh this guy is really much nicer than I thought he is. He must be quite a nice man afterall!"You either give into their demands or they will destroy you. It isn't too hard to tell if they are pathological up front. Do they blow up at the slightest negative comment and start coming out with threats of physical violence or legal threats? Does their comments of past failures and rivalries border on conspiracy theory? They manage to get through life because they are skilled at appealing to the narcissism in others. — swstephe
Trump is a snake. But because he is a snake, he is very rational and he is controllable. I know for certain that he cannot betray the social conservatives without ruining his presidency, probably even risking losing his seat due to Congress. He will satisfy social conservative agendas so long as he is permitted to satisfy his own agenda - which in this case is an economical one. Trump is a man who makes compromises - he's a man who is rational - you can strike a deal with him, even if he doesn't agree with you. That's very good - many people aren't like that. Hillary on abortion for example - that's my way or the highway. Furthermore Trump wants to be known as great - people who want to be known as great aren't narcissists - because it takes a great deal more than self-love to be known as great. You have to actually do something good - at least for some people - to be known as great. Alexander the Great for example - not a narcissist - if he had been one, he wouldn't have managed to do anything.Sure, he will play nice with conservatives, evangelicals and even white supremacists as long as they support him, while barely containing his brutal personal attacks on everyone else. — swstephe
The Koch brothers have primarily ECONOMIC interests, not social conservative ones.But don't take my opinion. What about the Koch brothers? They usually spend billions on their conservative candidate. They have decided to sit this election out because they don't believe Trump or Clinton is going to do what they want -- and have instead focused on house and senate races. They join a long list of billionaires who won't have anything to do with Trump, even his friends. — swstephe
This is just nonsensical drivel - they say that about everyone. The same was said about Steve Jobs, or Bill Gates for example. But it's just not true. If someone is obsessive and micro-managing every little detail (like me quite frequently) - they're very slow. They don't do a lot of things. They're always stuck on some small thing. They're not working on the big picture. Furthermore, they risk annoying people to the extent that they stop working for them - or if they keep working for them, they become very uninterested and produce low quality work. You see Steve Jobs bully employees once he's rich and powerful. Why? Because for people to be willing to work for you and to do what you want (along general lines, because at micro-level they still need freedom, simply because you yourself will lack the expertise) they have to either be given sufficient freedom and status in the company, OR they have to think that you are great, a different sort of human being. The bullying helps prove that. But Steve Jobs didn't get there by bullying people - quite the contrary, he got there by being servile, and like Trump, a snake. He sold the first computer that Wozniack built and gave him only one tenth of the money - he lied about the selling price. Clearly he didn't go around being like "Oh Woz, now you have to do X, I don't care what the fuck you think about it, just do it because I know better" - if he had done that, he would have been a loser. Instead he was like "Oh yeah Woz, this what you're doing is truly great! Maybe you should add XYZ, I was looking at it before, I think it would look great! What do you think?". So he clearly wasn't busy micro-managing anything - he was busy keeping people happy, and looking at the big picture, what has to be done in order to get an advantage. So he was quite the opposite from obsessive and micro-managing. He became that much more once he became powerful simply because he had to in order to get folk to work for him.There have been dozens of reports from people that actually worked with Trump. He is obsessive, micro-managing every detail, and doesn't give an inch on anything. — swstephe
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