• Judaka
    1.7k
    Empathy is praised to no end as a higher level of human emotion which allows for compassion and understanding. The idea of "putting yourself in someone else's shoes" in order to understand them is common advice and it's rare to find someone who disagrees with that notion.

    Now empathy clearly motivates people, it clearly makes people feel things and develop new perspectives. We imagine what things might be like and if that encourages someone to be kinder or more open-minded then great. I am going to be talking only about why empathy is a poor tool for understanding others.

    Main Reasons
    1. Unknown differences b/w people

    Differences in intelligence, upbringing, temperament, interpretations, values, appearance, social/family life, hobbies, personalities, psychological proclivities such as with stress and anxiety and so many other factors that can't be understood when you're trying to empathise with anyone but particularly strangers.

    Even in seemingly unambiguous contexts, you have no idea how other people perceive things or what it makes them feel or think. You can understand sentiments but not people.

    2. Removes people from their past

    In scenarios like divorces, homelessness, being laid off, friends having arguments and so on. You can perhaps generally although probably inaccurately guess what people might be feeling in those situations but you can't understand exactly what has happened in the lead up to this scenario. The reasons for homelessness, for instance, are vast. I watched a very interesting youtube channel think called "invisible people" interviewing homeless people.

    Some became homeless by choice, some were basically born into it, some are clearly not all there, some made terrible choices and some were just very unlucky. Some were very happy and others were miserable. I'm not saying we can take what they're saying at face value but you don't actually understand anything by just trying to "empathise" with a homeless person.

    3. Empathy requires imagination

    Pretty self-explanatory, you are filling in gaps by imagining things or guessing and this is obviously not an ideal way to achieve understanding. If you aren't imagining things or making assumptions then I don't think you can call what you're doing empathy. I don't mean empathy as in "being open-minded about what others might be experiencing" which is a very sensible alternative to empathy in my view.

    4. Empathy is likely to be well received

    So my problem here is that I know many people who think their attempts at empathy have been successful because the attempts are appreciated. There might be pragmatic reasons for accepting someone's attempt at empathy like receiving help from them in some way or to avoid offending them.

    When someone tells you of their problems and you respond by trying to understand and trying to show concern, that's going to affect the feedback you get. Alternatively, you never meet the people you're empathising with and there's no chance to even be corrected. I know many who refuse to see empathy as a flawed tool for understanding because of such experiences or lack of bad experiences.

    Conclusion

    There are many alternatives to empathy but none of them promise the same kind of results because those results are unrealistic. People use empathy to justify positions on topics they know absolutely nothing about and talk like experts. I see this all the time when it comes to topics like politics, dating, law and philosophy.

    You can't even take what people say at face value, let alone just imagining either what it would be like to be in their shoes or putting yourself in their shoes or just imagining anything of the sort I suppose.

    I realise lots of different definitions for empathy exist and if you bring up one that is different from mine then don't assume we disagree. I am only talking about the definition as I've laid it out.
  • BC
    13.6k
    Someone capable of empathy about another's situation still has to employ rational analysis to really understand their situation. Anyone might feel empathy for a homeless person, but knowing something about the rates of homeless, the causes of homelessness, the existence of programs for the homeless, and a little bit about actually being homeless will have a much better understanding of the homeless than somebody who can only identify with their misfortune.

    And sometimes empathy is pretty thin and cold. For instance, people who say they feel empathy for the homeless, but wouldn't give them cash because they might use it to buy alcohol are not actually empathetic -- they're being judgmental. If I were homeless, I would consider it entirely appropriate that I should salve my misery with a few beers, especially in the hot summer. If I were addicted, I would consider buying a hit (of whatever I needed) as a necessary thing.
  • Joshs
    5.7k
    If empathy simply means the desire or attempt to see the world from the other person's perspective, the obviously the desire in and of itself doesnt guarantee insight. If , however, the real question youre asking is what is the potential fro understanding someone from their perspective such as to be able to identify with their behavior, views, choices, I would say it is unlimited. I would also say that the history of cultual evolution is a history of a gradual development of the ablity to see the other as less and less foreign and alien. Changes in our systems of justice and punishment relfect these developing insights. We can and do get better at figuring out the behavior of living things. after all, it wasnt too long ago that we believed that non-humans could not use tools, had no language or emotion, had no cognition or culture that they passed down,, etc.
  • Judaka
    1.7k
    Knowledge is good but we are still merely making educated guesses. Interpretation, personality, experience and many other factors will impact an individual trying to empathise with the homeless which will lead to different results.

    There's always more knowledge which can impact our understanding, here's a recent example for me.

    https://www.princeton.edu/news/2013/08/29/poor-concentration-poverty-reduces-brainpower-needed-navigating-other-areas-life

    Quite an interesting discovery which demonstrates even further how stupid the idea of empathy is. Science, knowledge, experience, open-mindedness are all great but give us realistically imperfect understandings. There's no way that a well-fed, happy person who has never experienced poverty can actually understand it just by imagining some things, making some assumptions and trying to compare it to their own, very different experiences.

    I'm not saying we should give up on trying to understand others but rather than it should be obvious that it won't be easy to do that. Empathy is a half-hearted attempt which leads to falsehood.

    As for the hypocrisy for people with their actions and their words, that's a whole other can of worms for a later time.


    however, the real question youre asking is what is the potential fro understanding someone from their perspective such as to be able to identify with their behavior, views, choices, I would say it is unlimitedJoshs
    Being able to identify with the behaviour of others is completely fine because it's something that you're feeling rather than an attempt to understand how someone else is feeling. For example, I saw this video on youtube where these two Russian soccer hooligan gangs fought each other for who knows why.

    The title of the video was "Russians beat up Muslims" and despite the fact both sides were clearly white Russians and some commenters who understood Russian saying "these are two Russian gangs" many people identified with the frustration and aggression being shown in the video with their own anti-Islamic sentiments.

    Now I'm not saying there aren't cases where there is understanding. The point of the story is to show that particularly when it comes to complete strangers, we're very easily misled and we really don't know anything at all until we get the facts.

    So I'm not saying we should give up on understanding others at all, I'm just saying that empathy and imagination are not providing us with helpful tools towards the end of understanding others.
  • hachit
    237
    what you have described is sympathy.

    Plenty people use the word sympathy and empathy interchangeable were is probably were you got your definition.

    True empathy is requireds no imagination because it only can occur when you have gone through something similar.

    Empathy is one of the things that we actually have a hard definition for, it is

    the ability to understand and share the feelings of another

    What you described sounds like, this

    feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
    Or
    understanding between people; common feeling

    Wich is the definition of sympathy. A key part of sympathy is

    Even in seemingly unambiguous contexts, you have no idea how other people perceive things or what it makes them feel or think. You can understand sentiments but not people.

    True empathy doesn't have the problems you listed. However it is also far more difficult.
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    What I am describing is not sympathy and doesn't even necessarily entail sympathy. Sympathy does not involve imagination, it involves feeling badly towards someone else's situation. What you've quoted actually has a lot more to do with the definition you've given of empathy.

    So you've given me a google definition for empathy well let me give you one for sympathy. It is "feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune". No imagination or no understanding involved.

    I can promise you that there are a lot of definitions for empathy out there and the one you've given really hasn't scratched the surface. If we can't agree on this then that's okay. Our disagreement is limited to a definition.

    You will hear people use empathy as a tool for understanding all the time. You can google "empathy for/towards" and see what others have been searching and it is clearly being used as a tool to understand others. Even your definition says that empathy means to understand and share the feelings of others. This necessarily requires imagination because you aren't literally feeling their feelings.

    What I meant by understanding "sentiments" are like people saying "I feel so alone" and you don't just feel sorry for that person, you may very well think back to moments of your own aloneness and really feel it with them or you see the pain on their face and you feel that with them. Or you might see a character running away from something and really feeling that you yourself may as well be the one being chased.

    Empathy has many benefits to it because you don't always need to understand precisely what's going on, sometimes you just need to be there for people or have a basic idea of what's going on. If your roommate looks annoyedly at you when you lost the remote then it'd be bad if you don't understand their frustrations or empathise with that feeling and react appropriately.

    I am talking about:
    1. Empathising with people you don't even know like homeless people, refugees, transpeople, people living in debt and so on. Using your theories, imagination and guesses.
    2. Thinking empathy actually gives you true understanding.

    To continue the homelessness example; even if you've been homeless yourself, you still don't understand homelessness. You can relate to certain things, you have more experience and knowledge than others but these things don't mean you understand it.

    You also don't know anything about a person just because he's homeless even if you've been homeless. So you can surely see a homeless person crying while talking about their homelessness and put 1 and 1 together and really feel that pain as though it's your own and that's okay but don't turn around and tell me you actually understand that person's homelessness.

    All I am pointing out in this thread is that many people do try to use empathy as a tool for understanding people and situations when they really shouldn't be. Empathy is not worthless but it is a worthless tool for understanding people, it's not worthless at understanding sentiments but it's not great at that either.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    The idea of empathy is not that you're literally going to have someone else's perspective. That's obviously not possible. The idea is to not be so self-centered via imagining yourself in the others' situation as best as you can, with an eye to gaining some insight into why the other might react or behave as they are in that situation, trying to understand different perspectives and views than your own, etc.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    What annoys me about empathy talk, especially criticisms of a lack of empathy when people try to use them as argumentative leverage/try to paint themselves as superior, is that it's always a matter of having empathy for the people they more or less agree with/feel the same way as, and never a matter of having empathy for people they disagree with, don't at all feel the same way as.

    The real test of empathy is when you can empathize with people whose actions you might be tempted to call "dangerous" or "evil" etc.
  • Moliere
    4.7k
    I don't know if I'd say it's possible to empathize with people in the abstract -- so you use categories like the homeless, and I would say that we are not empathizing at all if we are claiming to empathize with such a category of persons. Empathy occurs between persons in a face-to-face relationship, not between a person and an abstract category of persons.

    I think I agree with you this far @Judaka -- only that I'd say people claiming empathy for a category are a little confused on what empathy is, though perhaps that's not what you're wanting to focus on.

    What I would ask of your belief is -- if empathy is bad at understanding people, is there anything good at understanding people? And if so, what is it?
  • BC
    13.6k
    I'm not saying we should give up on trying to understand others but rather than it should be obvious that it won't be easy to do thatJudaka

    So you are telling us that understanding other people is hard. Who knew? You discount knowledge and empathy as both being insufficient. So, we use emotional and intellectual tools to try and understand each other -- which you say is not enough.

    What is the upshot? What else have you got?
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    Empathy promises unrealistic results - even the idea of using it face-to-face implies intuitively understanding things you have no means to understand - you can only imagine.

    When we're dealing with someone face-to-face, I would say that making assumptions isn't as bad if you can confirm their truth or not with that person. Especially if you have experience and knowledge.

    Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7eBNeDW1GQf2NJQ6G6gAxw

    This guy gives people financial advice and because of his personal experiences with debt, his experiences of dealing with many people with financial stress and his knowledge about how debt works. He has a lot to draw from to understand people who are going through those things. However, even he asks whether his assumptions about them are correct or not and he says things which are just logical.

    He has some more advantages:
    1. Tone/word usage or (facial expressions)
    I don't think he could know how someone with a lot of debt is feeling becasue there are many ways to interpret that debt. However, he knows they feel they need help, he can hear how desperate they are and how frazzled they are. You can make a lot of assumptions with this added context.

    2. Applying basic knowledge of causation
    He knows that for this person to be in the kind of debt they in, there must be a cause. That might be their behaviour, their lack of income or whatever else. So he can safely assume that if you're a high-earner but you're in debt that you are being financially irresponsible and with some questions about that, he can get a pretty good idea of what's going on.

    3. Applying commonality in interpretations
    There's a lot of difference in interpretation but also commonality, for instance, I remember a caller saying her fiancee had $250,000 in debt that she didn't know about. We can't exactly understand how she feels about that or what went on but it doesn't take much to confirm that she fits into a larger pool of some kind of interpretation. Which might be "He needs to commit to a plan to dealing with the debt or I'm leaving" or "He lied to me so I'm leaving" and so on. Once we understand the why and the what, we can make guesses.

    All in all, understanding someone as a means to an end is possible. We can recognise and relate to sentiments and interpretations even if we don't personally share them. It's important to deal only with the facts, not be too confident in our assumptions and confirm our beliefs.

    I think most people get this when we're talking about a single person. I just think many throw the complexity out the window when it becomes inconvenient for them and impedes their ability to make generalised assumptions that become premises in their arguments, interpretation and understanding.
  • Judaka
    1.7k
    the idea is to not be so self-centered via imagining yourself in the others' situation as best as you can, with an eye to gaining some insight into why the other might react or behave as they are in that situation, trying to understand different perspectives and views than your own, etc.Terrapin Station

    This is the kind of empathy that I am criticising, you aren't becoming less self-centred via imagining yourself in others' situations you're just pretending that there's any similarity between your imagination and the reality. You can explore different perspectives as an intellectual exercise but you can't turn ignorance into knowledge by using imagination.

    You also talk about "empathising with people who do "'evil'". You're talking about something very complex which most people don't understand, have experience with, know the backstory for or really anything at all. You want them to imagine what it might be like despite all that and try to come up with some reason that allows them to 'understand' the individual a bit better?

    Your theories are just that and have no place being called understanding, imprecise or not.
  • Joshs
    5.7k
    There are those who may talk about scientific understanding of the world as as progressing ,and also technology as progressing,. but when it comes to inter-human understanding they may say that there is no essential progress, that human nature does not change. i wonder if you are among that group. Then there are those who recognize that scientific and technological change is part of larger cultural movements that include the arts, politics and philosophy. And they will say the reason is that all areas of cultural understanding have to be treated holistically is that any kind of understanding with regard to the particular circumstances of other human beings makes reference to larger worldviews that inform interpretations of particular events and circumstances.
    You example of misreadings concerning Russians is an example of this. a better one would be the schism in the u.S. between conservatives and liberals. Their inability to empathize with one another is the result of their inability to understand from the others perspective the underlying worldview that justifies their political view point. In your every day dealings with other people, especially your family and friends, the most significant conflicts that develop and make empathy difficult arise out of differences in worldivew, not the particular events that spark one's anger, disappointment or disapproval. Trivial events are only able to spark a lack of empathy because they are informed by larger schemes of understanding on the part of others that we are not able to subsume within our own perspective. That's why its ludicrous to say we should empathize with those who despise or think are evil. The very fact that we despise them is the result of an ability to subsume their worldview, And empathy cannot be achieved into we do that. But the history of in p[philosophical and cultural worldviews is a history of the increasing ability to identity with and subsume what had formerly been seen as alien thinking on the part of other peoples.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    You can explore different perspectivesJudaka

    That's the whole point.
  • Judaka
    1.7k
    That's the whole point.Terrapin Station

    If you find it entertaining then why should I criticise?

    If I wanted to learn, for instance, what it's like to be a soldier in war. I could read up on what soldiers say it's like or I could imagine what it might be like. If I do either option and I want to make some opinions about soldiers, I've got a few things to look out for, some appreciation for what might've happened to these people and how it might've affected them.

    If you want to indulge your imagination as being valid and plausible, despite the fact you probably know as much about war as could be expected of someone who's never fought in one and knows very little about it (like myself) then go ahead. Personally, I will try to stick to the facts, read body language and understand expressed sentiments and try to keep my imagination on a tight leash.
  • BC
    13.6k
    If an individual has no empathy for a particular individual or small group of similar individuals, they will likely not be thinking about this individual or small group, and they won't be interested in them either. Emotions, like empathy, sympathy, sorrow, love, fear, anger, joy, etc. are what prompt us to think and behave with respect to things and other people.

    If you discount empathy, you are devaluing the prime mover of behavior. Delete the prime mover from your thinking, and you won't know jack shit.

    Emotion and cognition don't operate in isolation from each other -- they are reciprocating pistons. It takes both parts. Feeling and thinking together leads to insight, discovery, the "ah ha!" moment.
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    I don't agree with everything you said but I'm not criticising empathy as a motivator. Many good things come from empathy as a motivator and I think it's not something people can avoid. We were born capable of empathy and we can't become incapable of it.

    I don't think people should be using fear or anger to understand things either. However, as motivators, they have their roles, important roles. So yeah I don't disagree with your overall sentiment.
  • pbxman
    39
    Empathy has to do with the ability the human mind to project itself into other people or other situations. If it wasn't for that capacity of the mind only the solipsistic approach would be valid. That approach makes you a totally egoistic person and you tend to believe that your experience in life it's unique because only experience it, when in fact the same situations have been repeated millions of times in history by other people. If not psychology wouldn't exist. Perhaps our existence is not that particular and special but our egos want to believe it is!

    Empathy is not perfect because we cannot actually hack into other's people minds and fully project our consciousness into their minds an know exactly what they feel and think otherwise the world would be like a hive-mind in which the self and even death were known and accepted as illusions.
    Yes, as humans we have limited capacity for empathy nevertheless it's our natural defects what makes us humans. In French and Spanish this is called Grégarisme (I don't know why it's hard to find the same term in English) that says that humans are beings between totally "gregarian" species such as bees or chimpanzees and totally independent or asocial ones such us some spiders and leopards.

    Buddhism and Vedanta are some of those philosophies that aim for that "hive mind" that is called "Universe". In the first one it is said that all sentient beings want to be free of suffering. Besides they experience ignorance and impermanence too. The idea of free-will is debatable. When you accept that you get compassion and true understanding of existence not just for people but for every living creature.

    The question of "who am i?" makes you do that philosophical trip from solipsism to a total non-ego experience. Empathy is just an stage.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k


    You're expecting empathy to amount to literally seeing something as someone else, but that's neither possible nor the idea of it.
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    I am not a solipsist as a result of empathy, it's an epistemological question. I don't really want to go into it here.

    Perhaps our existence is not that particular and special but our egos want to believe it is!pbxman

    In some ways it isn't and in some ways it is, I don't think this is an issue of people being unique but rather than there are many variants and you can't account for those in your analysis.

    Overall it's important to realise I am talking about empathy as a tool for understanding. I am not complaining about the limitations of empathy but people who don't recognise and implement an understanding of the limitations of empathy into their use of it as a tool for understanding people, situations, concepts and so on.


    You talked about empathy as being useful for understanding different perspectives. To theorise (for the sake of gaining insights into others) about possible reasons for behaviour.

    My opinion is that the theories of an ignorant man are more likely to lead him towards falsehood than truth. They're not giving you insight, they're not useful and I'm not expecting empathy to be perfect but it's not even ineffective it's just harmful.

    If an ignorant person seeks knowledge then there are many tools for that. Seek out those with experience and learn from them, gain your own experience, acquire knowledge and deal with the facts. That's how I try to overcome my ignorance.

    Now if you honestly feel misrepresented by my words then state plainly your position and I will apologise for any mischaracterisations that I made. It remains that many others think in the way that I criticise and I think this is a rather mainstream idea; that empathising with people you don't know will help you to understand them.

    If you don't know then you don't know! It's not a terrible thing. If you couldn't be bothered to do any research then it wasn't interesting to you and why should you care that you don't know about it. Imagination can be useful but there are pre-requisites of knowledge and experience. A brilliant chef with great imagination will be very successful, someone who knows nothing about cooking shouldn't be trying to imagine great dishes - go learn how to cook instead!
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    My opinion is that the theories of an ignorant man are more likely to lead him towards falsehood than truthJudaka

    Falsehood and truth about what, exactly?
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    I don't think that inter-human understanding hasn't improved. Through technology, anthropology, psychology, biology, neurology, sociology, improved communication, travel, immigration and so on, things have improved.

    I agree with your general sentiments but I think worldviews are products of the real differences which are biological and interpretative and these manifest themselves differently in different contexts and lead to different kinds of difficulties in understanding others.


    About that which he theorises about, his theories will direct his focus towards unlikely or implausible outcomes or even worse lead to assumptions which act as foundations to further incorrect conclusions.

    Example:

    You imagine that soldiers returning from war have experienced traumatic experiences during their service. You meet a few soldiers who appear uninterested or unwilling to talk about their wartime experiences. You think "understandable, they don't want to relive those traumatic experiences" and it sounds reasonable and plausible but mainly because you had this first idea that they had these traumatic experiences. It's an interpretative focus caused by ignorance and it leads to invalid conclusions that sound reasonable and wise.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    About that which he theorises aboutJudaka

    Empathy isn't about finding correct answers to mathematics and science questions.

    It's about understanding feelings and situations and decisions and actions and the like.
  • Judaka
    1.7k
    Empathy isn't about finding correct answers to mathematics and science questions.Terrapin Station
    I agree.

    Theorise definition: To formulate theories or a theory; speculate.

    I think I am being fairly unambiguous in talking about non-mathematical, non-scientific contexts like with understanding soldiers experiences in war and homeless peoples' experience being homeless. Is there some kind of problem?

    It's about understanding feelings and situations and decisions and actions and the like.Terrapin Station

    Right. I am saying to use empathy in this way is wrong and covered extensively as to why I think this. That's literally what my OP and this entire thread is about. I think perhaps you just saw "empathy" in the title and gave your 2 cents and it has been a bit of a waste of time for me to have responded to you about the topic of this thread. Is that invalid?
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    I agree that there are many differences between people but are they enough/more than required for empathy to lose its value? We have similarities too don't we? We all feel pain and joy for very similar reasons. If we didn't all human activity would be different e.g. we could all have been happy for very different reasons. Yet here we are, ALL of us trying to achieve fame, money, social acceptance, etc. and avoiding their contraries. In other words if we behave in similar ways doesn't that imply we feel and think in similar ways. To me, this suggests that we can be reasonably correct about other people's feelings through our own feelings if put in their situation - this is empathy.
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    I think intellectually you can appreciate that, for instance, nobody wants to be ugly. You can understand that an ugly person will want to try to improve their looks if they can.

    So here are two major questions:
    1. If someone who isn't ugly (maybe even attractive), who doesn't know many ugly people would try to "put themselves in the shoes of an ugly person" or "imagine what it might be like to be ugly" what kind of accuracy would you expect here? In understanding how that person experiences their "ugliness" and how it impacts their lives?

    2. Would you agree that "ugliness" would be experienced differently by:
    Men vs Women?
    Extroverts vs Introverts?
    Rich vs Poor?
    Educated vs Uneducated?
    Someone who is happy vs someone who is depressed?
    Someone in a relationship vs someone who is single?
    Someone with good friends/family vs someone without that?
    What about different temperaments or cultures or religions or life goals or value structures?

    My answers to these questions are 1. They would have no clue about what it's like, none whatsoever and everything they said would be more or less wrong. 2. It is experienced differently to the point where to talk about Person A's ugliness and think it's the same as Person B's ugliness is a bit silly imo. I have laid out more problems with empathy as a tool for understanding in my OP but these are most relevant to your perspective.

    Do you agree that these questions are pertinent to the issue at hand? Do you disagree with my answers?
  • pbxman
    39
    Making an statement such us "Empathy is worthless for understanding people" and then giving examples of cases in which people are mislead by false information is like saying that "Guns are worthless for killing people".
    Yes all perceptions of the mind can be misleading and lead us intro wrong conclusions however "empathy" is one of the qualities only few species have and they have it for a reason.
    You statement sounds more like "well if you don't have a clear idea of what I'm going through you better shut up because I found that offensive" or "Since we don't know what a person is made of only God can judge".
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    I understand what you're saying but you're asking for perfection. Nothing is perfect. All I'm saying is empathy works for most of us because we are similar in many respects especially those things which bear on the matter e.g. happiness and pain. You may not appreciate this generalization but it's being done all the time. That of course doesn't prove anything but wouldn't a tool so ineffectual as you describe it have been discarded a long time ago. It works so it's still in use.
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    Well, I have provided examples as I hoped they would help others understand my views. I have also provided reasons for why I think empathy is a worthless or even counter-productive tool for understanding people and ideas for what should be used rather than empathy.

    I am also not arguing "empathy is worthless" as I don't believe that is the case. I think empathy is important in encouraging people to be compassionate and act harmoniously with others. Empathy can give us the courage and resolve to do good, I think most people are good people and empathy has a lot to do with that.

    My motivations for arguing against empathy as a tool for understanding people is not to do with people being unfairly judged but more simply because I think the process of using empathy to understand people or more generally imagination/theories to understand things to be an abundant source of stupidity and falsity.


    I think I am painting a picture of empathy being completely worthless and harmful as a tool for understanding people. I am hardly saying "well it's not perfect so let's steer clear of it".

    So in my "ugliness" example, I answered that the person who imagined how the state of ugliness is experienced would be pretty much completely wrong in their assumptions. I also think that this person would not realise they were completely wrong and would possibly not care enough to challenge their assumptions.

    It would've been better if this person simply said "hmm I have no idea how it would feel to be ugly". That's the sensible answer. The alternative is to go watch some yotube videos about people who are ugly talking about their experience. That alone would actually give this person a chance but you obviously can't take that at face value.

    You could probably spend many hundreds of hours researching this topic and your time would not be wasted. It's a very complicated issue.

    I don't think I'm being unreasonable by suggesting that such a complicated topic shouldn't be tackled by the imagination of an individual who knows nothing about it and hasn't experienced it. That should be the bare minimum, that you at least know a little bit about it and you have some experience with people who experience ugliness.

    Also, we are biologically hardwired for empathy, it cannot be "discarded".
  • pbxman
    39
    ...I think the process of using empathy to understand people or more generally imagination/theories to understand things to be an abundant source of stupidity and falsity.
    OK then the premises of your question are wrong and have nothing to do with empathy. I think the title "Unicorns are worthless for understanding people and the world" would be much more accurate.
    Empathy can give us the courage and resolve to do good,

    Empathy: em•pa•thy /ˈɛmpəθi/ : the power or ability to identify with another's feelings, thoughts, etc., as if they were one's own.

    I don't think empathy guarantees goodness just the limited ability to feel through others. It has to do with perceptibility but also with imagination as you pointed out. Masochists, psychopaths, depressed people etc may know how you feel about them but that doesn't necessary stop them from carrying out their actions. Then again that's another debate...
  • Judaka
    1.7k
    OK then the premises of your question are wrong and have nothing to do with empathy. I think the title "Unicorns are worthless for understanding people and the world" would be much more accurate.pbxman

    ....

    I don't think empathy guarantees goodness just the limited ability to feel through others.pbxman

    Me neither and I didn't say it did.
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Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.