Therefore, I am truly lost in the labyrinth of purpose, wherever you go you will ostensibly not find any. — Edward the Cactus

Aren't you just projecting your bad expieriences in one area on to a lot of other persons and fields.

I mean you just state that couples have kids because they are bored and want something new and feel the obligation to have kids. I literally never met any couple that said we where bored so we thought we'll make a kid. This is maybe something an existental nihilist like you would say. I get that. But assuming the majority of couples are existental nihlist is just wrong.

You assume there to be one purpose and then state if something is not that ultimate purpose you'll get devestated.

However if we conceptualize purpose as to achieve a goal, your conception of purpose only works if you fullfill your goal one moment before you die. Because you only allow one true purpose. This leads you to your negative conclusion.

But if we take a less extreme view and don't assume there to be only one true purpose you get plenty of options. F.e. you could say playing videogames served me well as purpose and now I set a new goal for myself. So if you conceptualize a purposefull life to be a life where you set plenty of meaningfull goals and try to achieve them and once you achieve them you set the next meaningfull goal, theres no reason why you shouldn't be able to lead a happy and purposfull life.

Theres an analogy with truth here. If you want to find the whole Truth you won't succede. But if you want to get a more accurate view of the world (get closer to the truth) you do the same action but employ a different conceptual framework leading to different interpretations. "I still didn't find the truth" or "I found out something new and now know more about the world."

I believe we need to find what gives us purpose in life, we can have several purposes at once, short term, longterm etc, and we don't have to limit ourselves to just one.

Sometimes having a good time with your friends will be important for your well being, and might be important for your future self, it is not as simple as it is just wasted time.

In the future you might need their help or they might need you, you made their life a bit happier by being there and you both built connections.

If you look at this world there are plenty of issues that needs to be fixed or improved such as plenty of suffering and it is meaningful to help reduce suffering.

Perhaps one day down the road you will receive help from your connections with reducing suffering.

I believe humanity and life have a meaningful purpose in trying to achieve a better world without resorting to any form of violence.

Your help is needed. Thus your life is needed thus you have a meaningful existence. In that your life is meaningful for others.

I believe meaning has to a large extent come from the outside, because if it comes from the inside only we can easily change it, which makes it feel less authentic.

But it can not only come from the outside as we also have to find that what the outside wants from us is meaningful.

But as there are plenty of people who are willing and eager to abuse our search for a meaningful existence, we have to choose carefully what to devote our energy, skills and focus on, in order to not become useful idiots.

This requires us to study philosophy, history, politics, psychology etc.

It's not your fault you're lost but neither should that be cause to harm others from an inner spring of resentment. Do no harm, though that may seem impossible under stipulated conditions. Death can happen at any time.

Everyone is lost, except those who have decided they are not and submit themselves to what the believe is necessary in light of their attachments (Life).

Imagine someone less fortunate than you, tortured by fate, and love them. Even a gesture of artificial love (empty of authentic feeling) is better than nothing at all. Feel good that you know what it means to love your friends and family.

Two things. One: nihilism neither contains nor upholds any value that requires one accept nihilism. When you realize this, you can just reject it.

Two: we know the purpose of a thing from its nature. So we must ask, fundamentally, what is our nature? Human beings are evolving from ignorance into knowledge over time. We inherit the benefits of past struggles to survive, and to know, in order to breed, and pass on that information. And therein lies our purpose - to live, to know to live. To take what has been handed down to us and use it to the best of our ability to provide for the future.

I did not have any intentions to project others because of my bad experiences nor have anything against those facts I stated in my post above. I have a decent everyday's Joe life, not a millionaire either, but still a comparatively comfortable life and nothing really worries me at the present moment, it just seems to me that I am losing the value of nearly everything and no, I do not with any purpose detest choices made by others; their lives - their choices, fair enough. I just figured out that I am steadily becoming highly negative, but I do not necessarily demonstrate my views on others as if to put them down in any way. I just don't get the life. What I seemingly get, and I always maintain objectivity, rather than individualistic views on the purpose is that the ultimate purpose might be how we affect others by what we do, but on the other hand this concept opposes my viewpoint to a certain extent.

I don't understand where you or other Nihilists, Absurdists and Existentialists get the notion that you need, or that there should be, or we should expect, a purpose or meaning to life.

Or does being a Nihilist mean that you acknowledge that there isn't and needn't be meaning or purpose to life? The dictionary seems to say that philosophical Nihilists say that there isn't such meaning or purpose, and the dictionary strongly implies that Nihilists feel that that's a bad thing.

If that's what Nihilists say, then you're right that there isn't purpose or meaning to life, but you're wrong if you think that that's a bad thing.

Michael Ossipoff

6 F (South-Solstice WeekDate Calendar)

...Friday of the 6th week of the calendar-year that started with the Monday that started closest to the South-Solstice.

It seems to me that I do not even know where or how I acquired this concept of need or so-called purpose, you name it, it just happened steadily, day by day, month by month... and there it is, boom, I am a fully developed nihilist.
Ironically as it may sound, when I acquired the concept of purpose, I lost it right away. Ask yourself, what would have changed if you would not exist on Earth, (No offense intended, nor was targeted at you specifically) that's right, not a thing would have changed. Admit it.
I am not trying to be a smartass or anything in that direction, I just rely strictly on logic rather than individualistic views that are for the most part subjective and I do not really see the purpose of life, speaking objectively.
I consider myself as a decently adequate person, but the ascending mindset of nihilism goes far beyond my limits of comprehension. Another thing to mention is that I do not unleash my negativity upon others, I just do not see the purpose of acquiring the positivity, therefore I am not even capable of sharing the positive, which can also be seen through the text I guess. I just do what I am voluntarily forced to do.

Well, there are things that people like. What more purpose or meaning than that is needed? That’s really all it comes down to.
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When, in some way or at some time, things haven’t gone so well, or aren’t going so well, there’s a tendency for negative feelings about life. Buddhists seem to imply that those negative feelings don’t stand up to examination, and I agree.
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My early life didn’t go well at all. We’re born into a societal world where, from the start, our lives are governed by self-interested, problem-ridden people—parents, school, and society-overall. …unfavorable conditions for the survival of life just starting-out.
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So how and why did that happen? I didn’t ask to be born—especially into a societal-world like this one. It wasn’t my fault. Whom can I blame it on? No one. But a good thing is that I needn’t blame it on myself either.
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(Though most Nihilists, Absurdists and Anti-Natalists are Materialists, and I’m instead an Ontic Structural Subjective Idealist, most of what I’m saying is independent of one’s metaphysics, though I might understandably say it in terms of my own metaphysics.)
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Why and how did it happen? If you’re a Materialist, starting from the brute-fact of a fundamentally-existent physical world, then it’s inevitable that that physical world will follow its own laws, and obviously that included you and your life. For me, we and our lives are inevitable too, but for a different reason that we needn’t go into if you aren’t into metaphysics.
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The point is that it was inevitable. That’s the answer to “Why did it happen?” …though the details of the “How did it happen?” will differ a bit depending on one’s metaphysics.
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As an inevitability, it wasn’t anyone’s fault or anyone’s doing. Literally.
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Again, the “how” depends on your metaphysics, but whether you’re a Materialist or an OnticStuctural Subjective Idealist, we and our lives were inevitable, and not anyone’s doing or fault.
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Given that: What to do?
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Well, there are things that we like. This life is temporary, and while we’re here, while it lasts, there are things we like. Hindus speak of life as play (“Lila”). What more purpose or meaning is needed?
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What after? Whether or not you believe in reincarnation--one life or a finite sequence of lives--life eventually ends with sleep.
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Barbara Ehrenreich pointed out that death doesn’t interrupt life—Life (temporarily) interrupts sleep.
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Sleep is the natural, normal, usual and rightful state of affairs.
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It’s life that’s the exception and interruption.
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Mark Twain said something like:
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“I was dead for millions of years before I was born, and it didn’t inconvenience me a bit.”
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Ask yourself, what would have changed if you would not exist on Earth, (No offense intended, nor was targeted at you specifically) that's right, not a thing would have changed. Admit it.

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Well, if I hadn’t been born there’d have been a little less for Materialists at this forum to be angry at.
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I do not really see the purpose of life.

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Of course. There isn’t one.
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I just do not see the purpose of acquiring the positivity, therefore I am not even capable of sharing the positive.

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Well, where there’s life, there’s positivity or negativity. I say that negativity doesn’t stand up to examination, and so there’s positivity. …even in the absence of meaning, purpose or reason for us, our lives and this physical world “existing” (whatever that word is supposed to mean).
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By the way, not really off the subject, Nisargadatta said that, from the point-of-view of the sage, nothing has ever happened. In metaphysical discussions here, I’ve often emphasized that I don’t claim that anything in this realm of logically-interdependent things “exists” or is “real” (whatever that would mean). In fact, the words “exist” and “real” aren’t even metaphysically defined…putting the lie to any supposedly firm, concrete metaphysics that makes claims about what is “real” or “existent”. I suggest that we tend to believe too much in our metaphysics.
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Michael Ossipoff
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6 F

Well, there are things that people like. What more purpose or meaning than that is needed? That’s really all it comes down to. — Michael Ossipoff

You are right, that would be stupid to quarrel with this argument. I, however, at the given moment am totally lost what I like or even what I would like to do. A little bit off-topic, but take a look. In the past, I was a fitness addict and had a rather aesthetic figure that most of the people are dreaming of, but then, after a while, I totally detested an aspect of my "purpose" and it was an infinite intake of calories. I just stopped enjoying what I liked because of one or another aspect of whatever employment one likes to do. For example, I like to swim but am a chronic epileptic and cannot swim by myself because of sporadic seizures, therefore certain aspects of my purpose are to a certain extent constraining myself to like what I do and in the long run, I end up giving up on my purpose, it happened with me twice already. First time with gaming, now with fitness. I can give you a link for some images to prove that I am not lying about the above stated, although if you want not to, so let it be.

When, in some way or at some time, things haven’t gone so well, or aren’t going so well, there’s a tendency for negative feelings about life. Buddhists seem to imply that those negative feelings don’t stand up to examination, and I agree. — Michael Ossipoff

I can relate to that. I did not accustom nihilistic perspective at that moment, it already lasts about six months, but recently I was denied a grant to research in one of the leading universities in Sweden(I am from Latvia) in my major studies and yes, that increased my capacity of negativity and somehow decreased the hopes of my "purpose", which at the present moment is career-driven, I guess.

The remark about nihilists being materialistic might be and might not be necessarily true, although I myself am a rather materialistically inclined person. From a fundamental, unlayered level of nihilism might seem that the materialistic value, as the life itself, has no intrinsic meaning, therefore is meaningless, but I, contradicting here myself on purpose, support your idea. Since nihilists neglect the purpose of life they, to a certain extent, attain it through their possessions.

Well, if I hadn’t been born there’d have been a little less for Materialists at this forum to be angry at. — Michael Ossipoff

A little bit confused. I am not angry at you at all or was that a touch of sarcasm?

By the way, could you define Ontic Structural Subjective Idealist in a broad sense? A contrary to nihilism I would assume.

Edward--

This is just a brief preliminary reply, because I wanted to answer immediately about a few topics.

I emphasize that, when I spoke of angering Materialists, I didn't mean you. I've been debating with Materialists here for a long time, and a lot of them tend to get angry during the discussions. But I wasn't referring to you, and I don't even really know if you're a Materialist.

So that remark wasn't about you at all, but was about my previous experience in these forums.
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About Ontic Structural Subjective Idealism:

First, it's sometimes said that here are 3 main categories for ontologies or metaphysicses:

1. Materialism (sometimes called "Physicalism")
2. Idealism
3. Dualism

As an offhand quote of the dictionaries, they tend to define Materialism as the belief or position that this physical universe is all of reality. ...that this physical universe is the ground-of-all-being. ...that anything that there is, consists of this physical universe, its things, and maybe including (according to some, ut not all Materialists) things that "supervene" on it, like consciousness.

Idealism is the position that the things of our logically-interdependent realm, including this physical world, have a nonphysical origin.

My Idealism is only about the things of the logically-interdependent realm, and doesn't apply to Reality itself.

Dualists believe that the material things are objectively real and existent, independently in their own right, but that nonmaterial things, too, have just as much reality and existence status, independent of matter. They believe in both.

"Ontic Structual" refers to a position that says that structure is all that there is in the logically-interdependent realm. Physicist Michael Faraday was maybe the 1st Westerner to express that position, in 1844.

He said that logical and mathematical relational structure is all that there is in the logically-interdependent realm (but that's my term, and he probably didn't use it). He said that there's no reason to believe in the supposed objective existence of the "stuff" of the physical world.

Tegmark is said to be an Ontic Stlructural Realist. Subjectivism ("Anti-Realism") is the opposite of Realism (at least as I mean "Subjectivism")

Tegmark's Realism is exemplified by his saying that his first principle is the External Reality Hypothesis. Realism says that in the logically interdependent realm, what-is is not centered on the individual, but is something really out there, and not dependent on, or about, us.

Subjectivism defines the logically-interdependent realm in terms of an individual's experience, with that experience being primary in the logically-interdependent realm.

So Tegmarks Mathematical Universe Hypothesis (MUH) is Ontic Structural Realism, whereas I instead subscribe to Ontic Structural Subjective Idealism.

The kitchen timer has sounded, telling me that it's dinner-time, and so this is just a preliminary reply. More tomorrow.

Michael Ossipoff

6 Sa

Some decades ago, after a breakup, I too was at a loss about what I liked, and so I devoted myself to study related to courses I’d been taking. I chose study that seemed most likely to be of practical interest when I later resumed courses. Of course a subject that I’d been studying was something that I liked, or I wouldn’t have been studying it. Of course there are various things that we like or could like.
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If, at some time, you seem to not like anything, that’s “depression”, which they say can be detrimental and should be remedied, by a choice of some pursuit known to be (at least previously) of interest to you, or practical to you. …&/or maybe, as a last resort, brief judicious minimal use of an anti-depression drug.
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As for the fitness-work, I think that sticking with a demanding dietary &/or exercise regime depends on things being alright, and free of unnecessary stress, in other aspects of one’s life. I once was on a good, but demanding, high whole-complex-carbs/low-fat, low-sugar diet, but the exasperation of unreasonably long phonecalls with my girlfriend at the time resulted in going off the diet, and resuming candy and junkfood consumption.
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An adverse outcome or disappointment sometimes brings-up the question: “Why did this life have to start?”, but I think it’s a relief that my birth, and my birth in this world in particular, was just an inevitability that isn’t and wasn’t my fault or anyone else’s.
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…and that this life is: 1) temporary; and 2) only questionably real in larger context. (…especially given the metaphysical undefinedness of “real”)
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I wouldn’t say that Ontic Structural Subjective Idealism is contrary to the Nihilist position that life doesn’t have purpose or meaning, but it doesn’t support a negative value-judgment about that.
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Buddhist writers have said some interesting things.
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When a situation has been dealt-with, it has thereby been nullified. (Of course, often merely deciding about the matter is sufficient “dealing-with” for the time-being.)
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Nihilists, Absurdists and Anti-Natalists often point out that birth isn’t necessary. But if that’s right, then how could there really be genuine needs in this life? We don’t really have genuine needs. Only likes. …going back to what I said about “Lila”.
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I suggest that there isn’t “free-will”, and that “our” choices are decided for us by 1) Our preferences (innate or acquired); and 2) Our surroundings. That relieves us of the burden of “our” choices. Our role is merely to make a best-guess regarding which choice is most in keeping with our preferences and surroundings.
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A Roomba, a purposefully-responsive device like us, doesn’t have needs, and isn’t bothered by dilemmas. Maybe there are things that we can learn from Roomba.
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Michael Ossipoff

6 Sa

To transform the clutter in my mind into comprehensible written words, I will divide my contribution to this dialogue into several sections:

1. I am unusually impressed by what I read and feel much compatibility with the writers. I am older (77), well educated and well read, financially secure, and in comfortable surroundings with access to many things I enjoy. I am retired, forced into retirement by medical problems threatening to end my life, problems typical of someone my age, but problems that cannot and will not be resolved. My personal physician dropped the news on me in the fall of 2017 with the words, "You are retiring, and you are retiring today. Your mind is killing your body." Her meaning was that the work I was doing (forensic psychology) was too stressful for my heart, and she refused to allow me to complete the two court-ordered child custody evaluations I had before me. Statistics tell me I should expect to live about three or four more years, and I look forward to death. I am medicated and monitored for depression, but my colleagues--both from the community of lawyers and the community of mental health professionals--encourage me to live on and continue contributing. The only personal goal I have for myself is to die well, without violence.

2. Philosophically I categorize myself primarily as an pragmatic eclectic, shifting positions to solve the life problem I face. Epicurus is my anchor, and I strive for the best both for myself and the world around me. At the moment, in the face of my current objective issue, I have been borrowing much from existentialism, especially as described by Europeans. My image of my optimal self is that I am a creator, especially a creator of myself, and themes such as autonomy, freedom, and power are important. Edward, this same thread of creating yourself must be part of your philosophy because you describe yourself as turning yourself into a physical enthusiast first and a gamer second. Michael, you also show me a pattern of weaving your life fabric in the same way. You built a new world for yourself after a relationship crumbled.

3. Now it is time for me to make a contribution, to add a new element to the conversation. I need the absurd, the confusion, the crumble, the loss of interest to be able to create, especially to create myself. I do not view the dark pit of death (or the end of anything) with the negative eyes of a nihilist. For example, divorce or the end of a relationship I view as a natural end, an indication I have drained the relationship of all it can offer me, drained it of its life, of its worth. I admit it is painful, it is the destruction of a world, but it also frees me to create myself anew, to flex my power and build something that has not yet existed. Michael mentioned he used education as a tool to create his new world, and Edward must have educated himself into a physical enthusiast and gamer. In my personal journey, I have use education to move beyond poverty, isolation, and shame. Relying solely on my aged memory, I will point out that the English word "education" is rooted in the Latin verb meaning "to draw out of." All three of us have weathered transitions forcing us to find within ourselves new abilities and solve new problems. Because we have made the transitions, we have succeeded, we are winners, which means we can win again and again...just as long as we accept our ability to create out of confusion. In every instance of transition we have faced the question of how can we reconfigure the parts of our shattered selves and create new futures. For me now, the challenge is to transition into a life flippantly labeled as "leisure retirement" and accomplish the task of dying.

4. As a consequence of my investment in existentialism, I cannot bother myself with questions such as what would life be were I never to have been born. These are questions I will never be able to answer. The only reality is that I do exist, and for several decades the world has adapted--not always pleasantly--to my existence. I also personally abhor the question of whether and to what degree I have influenced another persons life. This may be an idiosyncratic quirk: I long for companions, but shun followers; I appreciate people who stand equal to me. If I have influenced anyone, including my children and grandchildren, I hope the influence brought them to autonomy and creativity.

5. To summarize, Edward, I hope you can bring yourself to see this moment as one of the few times in your life when you will be truly free. It is my opinion you, like all thinking Europeans, are living through an existentialist moment, not a nihilist moment. The next decision you make, the next interest you estimate to be deserving of the investment of your abilities, that decision will end your freedom and drive you along a path shaping the next phase of your life. The challenge for you from the existentialist line of thought is "Do you have the courage to create yourself yet again?"

I thank you all for the compliment of your attention. I welcome your reactions.

What we choose to focus on and what we choose to interpret to gain meaning in our lives and how we interpret those things sometimes strays towards the larger than life concepts. Infinite time, unbelievable scales in nature and space, unimaginable amounts of people, economies, businesses, nations which all eclipse you and your efforts.

Existentialism occurs because of that kind of attitude, but when you focus on a child you helped, a friend you kept your promises to and a role you filled. That's where we find our purpose and our meaning and it is a beautiful thing.