but as you said its temporary, and i don't know if it's just me or it's the same for others, but that sense of purpose when I start doing something new, when I tell myself that I've gotta stop caring about the meaninglessness of it all, fades away pretty quickly, a week or 2 at best

but as you said its temporary, and i don't know if it's just me or it's the same for others, but that sense of purpose when I start doing something new, when I tell myself that I've gotta stop caring about the meaninglessness of it all, fades away pretty quickly, a week or 2 at best

…and suicide might satisfy you?
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How? — Michael Ossipoff

Imagine that you've just bought a new gaming console, with two brand new games. You put the first disk in. You get so immersed in this game that you don't notice how much time has passed, you are thoroughly enjoying it, it's been a long time since you've had this much fun with a game.
And now you put the second disk in. 10 mins in and you already know how much of a crappy and generic game it is, with no substance in it, it's just there for no apparent reason.
What would you do with the second video game? Keep playing it until you compulsively convince yourself that you like it? Or do you rationally delete the damn game?
life for some is the first video game but for most it's the second one

Is this just philosophical Nihilism, or is there something about your particular life-situation that makes your own particular life inadequate for you? — Michael Ossipoff

to answer that question, I think it'd be better if we chatted somewhere than here. Google hangouts is a great choice

Given the irreversibility, how sure are you really that it will result in something better, and not worse?
. — Michael Ossipoff

I don't know, I might go to hell or heaven, the underworld of Greek myths, or eaten by Egyptian afterlife monsters, or even merely go from one folder to another folder, if we are inside a giant simulation. All I know is that, when you're not content with your life, and deem it too trivial to begin caring about, it's nothing but a big, yet brave, risk to take. It might get worse if there's an afterlife and we don't reside in blackness (I still don't understand how there can't be oblivion, you go there every night when you sleep). But it's only sensible to take action to improve your life, even if it ultimately ends up hurting you

"Is this just philosophical Nihilism, or is there something about your particular life-situation that makes your own particular life inadequate for you?" — Michael Ossipoff

to answer that question, I think it'd be better if we chatted somewhere than here. Google hangouts is a great choice — Rhasta1

I've sent a message to your forum-inbox, so just click on "Inbox" at the top of your forum-screen. When there, click on "Reply".

That's the convenient off-forum discussion-space that the forum provides. If Google hangouts would be better, then your reply could give instructions for accessing and using Google hangouts. (But I never sign in to any website that requires me to give my gmail password.) But surely this forum's off-forum PM inbox messaging is perfectly good.

Michael Ossipoff

10 Th

“…and suicide might satisfy you?
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How?” — Michael Ossipoff[/i]
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Imagine that you've just bought a new gaming console, with two brand new games. You put the first disk in. You get so immersed in this game that you don't notice how much time has passed, you are thoroughly enjoying it, it's been a long time since you've had this much fun with a game.
And now you put the second disk in. 10 mins in and you already know how much of a crappy and generic game it is, with no substance in it, it's just there for no apparent reason.
What would you do with the second video game? Keep playing it until you compulsively convince yourself that you like it? Or do you rationally delete the damn game?
life for some is the first video game but for most it's the second one.

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The analogy doesn’t fit the situation.
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In your analogy, you’ve been playing the 1st video-game for a long time, and you know exactly what it’s like and how good it is. …and you know, when you play the 2nd game, that the 1st game is much better, because you’ve thoroughly experienced the 1st game.
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In the life-situation, you really couldn’t have any idea what suicide-death will be like.
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As I said, life is without reason, purpose or meaning, and what’s wrong with that? Your way of “fixing” that, is to add another pointlessness:
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So first there’s the reasonless, purposeless life, which happened to you not by your doing, and which you didn’t ask for. But then comes the pointlessness that you add. The pointless choice and forcing of a pointless transition to death. …and this time it’s your pointlessness, done by you.
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You see, that makes it a whole different kind of pointlessness. It will be your pointlessness, made and done by you.
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You didn’t ask for this life. You’re not responsible for the fact that it happened. But you will be responsible for what happens when you make it happen, when you destroy your body to force your death.
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Your pointlessness.
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Another thing:
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I mentioned that in the last half of my teens I wanted to die. Yes, but it wasn’t because of contempt or disdain for life, or because I considered life pointless. It was because I (thought that I) couldn’t have life. It was for a reason (even though it was a mistaken reason). There was nothing low about my valuation of life.
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In your case, though, it sounds as if your suicide would be because of contempt and disdain for life, and a belief that life is pointless. Not for any reason other than rejection of life itself.
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You reject life, and destroy your body, to force your death, because of, as an expression of, that rejection. Ok, now what have you then got? Rejection?
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Surely you see how dry and empty that would be for you. And that’s how you’d start eternity, with empty angry hard-to-please dissatisfaction, discontent, and an attitude of rejection. Does that sound good?
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As I’ve said, you’d be taking your discontent with you into death. …and yes, of course it obviously would remain with you.
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As Rajneesh pointed out, your death won’t be better than your life. …at least partly or mostly because you bring your life into your death. Death, that deepening sleep, is a continuation of your life. Why, then, would you expect your discontent to go away just because you’re dying? Your rejection-attitude, your discontent and hard-to-please built-in dissatisfaction, isn’t going to bring you happiness in that continuation of life during your death, any more than it is now.
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\But, returning to my own attitude during my teens:
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I wasn’t life-rejecting. I just felt that, if I couldn’t have life, then I didn’t want to co-operate with the social pretense of it, a phony non-life that was being imposed on me. (I was right about that part).
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I didn’t know what would follow, but (as an Atheist at the time, having been raised Atheist), I assumed that it would be, in some way, a continuation of life. (Though I was wrong about a lot, I was right about that.)
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In a better, enlightened, society, should they have given me the medicine for death? At the time, I thought so. But should they have? No. If it were an enlightened society, it would have been an easy matter to point out my obvious fallacies, and then the death wouldn’t have seemed necessary.
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Michael Ossipoff
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10 F

I don't know, I might go to hell or heaven, the underworld of Greek myths, or eaten by Egyptian afterlife monsters, or even merely go from one folder to another folder, if we are inside a giant simulation.

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I say that, after suicide, you’d be stuck with your discontent, anger, unhappiness and life-rejection, as you bring it with you into the eternal ever-deepening sleep. You can’t get away from yourself.
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If your suicide is by a method that could instantly end experience (but you’d be unlikely to achieve that, and death would likely be lingering and painful, if achieved at all), even then, do you really want your last experience to be one of doing traumatic painful violence to yourself?
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Do you call that an improvement?
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You can’t get away from your life. You can just irreversibly put yourself into a stage of it where you’ll be stuck with yourself and your discontent and there’s no longer anything that you can do about it.
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Would that unhappiness be eternal? I can’t guarantee that it wouldn’t be.
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As I said, death is continuation of life. …continuation of where you were before death.
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All I know is that, when you're not content with your life, and deem it too trivial to begin caring about, it's nothing but a big, yet brave, risk to take.

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It is that. It’s also irreversible and final.
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So you kill yourself to express contempt for life, and then what? Then where are you? You’re still with yourself, your contempt, rejection-attitude and discontent, and you can’t get away from yourself.
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It might get worse if there's an afterlife and we don't reside in blackness (I still don't understand how there can't be oblivion, you go there every night when you sleep).

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There’s more than one answer to that:
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1. Even if there were complete shutdown and oblivion in deep-sleep, it isn’t part of your experience. Likewise, the state of complete shutdown at death isn’t part of your experience.
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As I said, you can never experience a time when you aren’t. You can never experience a time when there’s no experience.
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Experience of a time when there’s no experience is a logical contradiction, a logical impossibility, a verbal self-contradiction.
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That’s important to these discussions, because advocates of suicide usually mistakenly believe that they’re going to achieve oblivion.
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2. Just because you don’t remember experience during deep-sleep doesn’t mean that there wasn’t any. …doesn’t mean that there wasn’t experience or consciousness of any kind or to any degree.
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But it's only sensible to take action to improve your life, even if it ultimately ends up hurting you

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You can’t really say that hurting you is an improvement.
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If it ends up as a horrifying irreversible mistake, trapped in horror, is that improving your life?
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Michael Ossipoff
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10 F

The analogy doesn’t fit the situation — Michael Ossipoff

in my analogy, video game A wasn't death caused by suicide, it was a content worry less life, the type that you speak of, the promised life promised by our parents and our schools and the life camus promises by laughing at the absurd. The life where problems are tolerable, where at the end of the day, you and your significant other share a cup of coffee together and read books or whatever you're into, where you sense purpose and meaning. That's video game A compared to video game B of mine where everyday is a constant struggle to even get out of my room, not because I'm sad but because I'm numb.
And I don't wanna be depicted as a sad edgelord who fetishizes his own sadness, I'm really trying to elevate my life. By doing things that make me happy at that particular time, and breaking away from the system, I'm following through just so that I could get a glimpse of the life that you promise, but if this doesn't work either, well....

You can’t really say that hurting you is an improvement. — Michael Ossipoff

I never said it will hurt me, I just said that it might. you know you might not reach your goals but you wake up every day working towards them.

In my analogy, video game A wasn't death caused by suicide, it was a content worry less life, the type that you speak of, the promised life promised by our parents and our schools and the life Camus promises by laughing at the absurd. The life where problems are tolerable, where at the end of the day, you and your significant other share a cup of coffee together and read books or whatever you're into, where you sense purpose and meaning. That's video game A compared to video game B of mine where everyday is a constant struggle to even get out of my room, not because I'm sad but because I'm numb.

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Then of course anyone would choose A over B. No argument there.
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But I was just saying that that doesn’t match your situation that we’ve been discussing.
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For someone who says that nothing means anything, suicide is, ironically and suspiciously, a not-so-easy distinctly resolutely purposeful act. …the kind of thing done only to achieve something that _matters very much_.
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If nothing matters, then what would motivate a not-so-easy resolutely purposeful act?
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If nothing matters, then fine, you needn’t do anything. …including a hard, risky, resolutely purposeful act such as suicide. …to gain what?
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It wouldn’t make any sense. It would be even more meaningless and absurd than your birth here, except, this time, then you _would_ own the absurdity, purposeless and meaningless, because it would be your doing.
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And I don't wanna be depicted as a sad edgelord who fetishizes his own sadness, I'm really trying to elevate my life. By doing things that make me happy at that particular time, and breaking away from the system, I'm following through just so that I could get a glimpse of the life that you promise, but if this doesn't work either, well....

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How doesn’t it work. What’s the not-work scenario?
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There aren’t things that you like?
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You can’t expect every moment to be enjoyable. It definitely isn’t like that.
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I spoke of how there are “Shit!” moments, and how you didn’t choose to be born. Your birth was inevitable, reasonless, agentless, purposeless, meaningless, and definitely not your fault.
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Because you didn’t ask for or choose it, and it wasn’t your fault, and isn’t your problem, and you needn’t take it seriously.
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As I told Andrew4Handel, disown it.
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It’s dealt-with, and “problems” that are dealt-with are done-with
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No problem. There are (sometimes) things that you like.
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I refer you to my 3 most recent replies, to Andrew4Handel, in the currently-active Antinatalist thread whose title speaks of life as the thing to unite against.
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Michael Ossipoff
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10 Su
0516 UTC

”You can’t really say that hurting you is an improvement.” — Michael Ossipoff
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I never said it will hurt me, I just said that it might.

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…and that makes it a good idea?
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you know you might not reach your goals but you wake up every day working towards them.

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What goal?
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You see, that’s the thing: Exactly what goal would suicide achieve? I told you the why the notion of reaching oblivion is a logical impossibility, a logical contradiction, a direct verbal contradiction in terms.
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Michael Ossipoff
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10 Su
0528 UTC

Suicidal Nihilists are trying to game the system. They can’t undo their conception and birth. They can’t achieve nonbeing. There’s no such thing for you once you’ve been conceived and born.
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They’re chasing a theoretical fiction.
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Is this societal-world bad? Shit yeah. Nothing can be done to fix it. You’ll be out of, it all in good time, when it’s time. If someone tinkers, by ending their life just because they decide that they don’t like it, without genuine urgent need to, they just make it a lot worse for themselves, because what you end-up in depends on your actions.
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Michael Ossipoff
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11 Tu
1828 UTC

If someone tinkers, by ending their life just because they decide that they don’t like it, without genuine urgent need to, they just make it a lot worse for themselves, because what you end-up in depends on your actions — Michael Ossipoff

Sounds like religious/karmic superstition.

Sounds like religious/karmic superstition — emancipate

What a very odd thing to say. That we end up with what we do is hardly limited to religion.

Michael Ossipoff

11 Tu
1851 UTC

I guess I misunderstood your post

understandable. It probably sounded like a quote of religious doctrine.