Why take pride in being black? — Brett

it can be a useful mechanism for any oppressed group of people. They take pride in surviving oppression, and maybe overcoming it. The pride they feel reinforces group cohesion, and forms part of the strength a group needs in order to survive and overcome oppression.

People often ask why there are gay pride events, and it is for the same reason, I would guess.

Yes, I understand that. But my point was it goes towards emphasising difference, which is the problem. Unless blacks and gays think differently and are that different.

I meant just what you suggested. The world needs welders and other tradespeople, and the education system should and does reflect this. Most hard-working people don’t have the time or energy to read “The History of Western Philosophy” or “The Fabric of the Cosmos” after a long day of installing plumbing in new construction or driving freight for 12 hours a day.

My point was there are no easy solutions, and in a free society, requirements of an informed public are and should be left to the individual. Perhaps shows like Bill O’Reilly’s should be given a required “this is purely my opinion” disclaimer.

Yes, I understand that. But my point was it goes towards emphasising difference, which is the problem. Unless blacks and gays think differently. — Brett

that makes the assumption that emphasising differences is a counter productive thing to do.

That plays into the hands of the people who use differences as a reason to be against a group of people....gay people don't maybe want to say 'look we are just like you, please accept us', they maybe want to say 'look we are different in this way from you; we accept that, and there is nothing wrong with the difference, please consider accepting us and our difference'.

Any other approach implies that the 'difference' is some how ...wrong, a problem in some way.

that makes the assumption that emphasising differences is a counter productive thing to do. — wax

That’s what I’m suggesting.

That’s what I’m suggesting. — Brett

so in the case of black people, you might emphasis the difference in colour/shade, in racial features....there may be dangers in that, but at the same time it isn't something that can be hidden.
Everywhere people go, one of the first thing people will notice about them is what they look like..unless they wear a veil. I think it is often a good idea to get things out in the open, rather than pretend those things aren't real.

But, what is “being black’, being ‘gay’?

I think it’s productive to recognize differences, but I don’t know if it’s healthy to emphasize differences. Certainly there are group politics. But there are also huge differences within groups reflecting the uniqueness of all individuals. Laws cannot be written for individuals, however, so grouping people is still necessary, I suppose. Perhaps rights shouldn’t be infringed upon due to differences, but agendas should be pursued by what people have in common? I don’t know.

Certainly there are group politics. But there are also huge differences within groups reflecting the uniqueness of all individuals. — Noah Te Stroete

that is the problem with groups. A group will often need forces of cohesion, but when you get a group of people who have a few things in common, they often have similar world views, and at that point what might seem like subtle differences from the outside observers point of view, can be incredibly decisive within that group.

People in groups often say 'we should present a united front'...but that isn't always possible....you should/or might have seen arguments within veggie and vegan groups over things like 'is honey vegan?'...for example...to most people outside the group who are quite happy to much on a cheeseburger, will get the impression that the group is dysfunctional...but that sort of thing is true within a lot of groups.

I wonder, for example, what internal conflicts there may be in groups like gun hobbiests...? Which lubricant is best for lubricating the gun barrel?

I wonder, for example, what internal conflicts there may be in groups like gun hobbiests...? Which lubricant is best for lubricating the gun barrel? — wax

Which militia is the most gay-friendly? lol

People in groups often say 'we should present a united front'...but that isn't always possible....you should/or might have seen arguments within veggie and vegan groups over things like 'is honey vegan?'...for example...to most people outside the group who are quite happy to much on a cheeseburger, will get the impression that the group is dysfunctional...but that sort of thing is true within a lot of groups. — wax

I think that’s where a little bit of tolerance goes a long way.

what I was saying about groups was well depicted in the movie 'Life of Brian'...

' the People's Front of Judea' vs. 'The Judean People's Front' :)
'

Just as a curiosity, do you worry about getting enough iron and other vitamins and minerals as a veggie/vegan? I have too much to stress about in my own mind, let alone worrying about that. I was mostly vegan for six months a few years ago, but I don’t think I could do it again. I know the ethical reasons for it, but I don’t think I can live that way again. God bless you for your efforts!

good movie. :)

Laws cannot be written for individuals, — Noah Te Stroete

But isn’t it the case that they are?

A law cannot be written for Noah or Brett personally. It’s in the Constitution.

Yes, I see what you meant. Though laws are enacted for the anonymous individual.

By the way, we are not all American in this conversation.

Just as a curiosity, do you worry about getting enough iron and other vitamins and minerals as a veggie/vegan? — Noah Te Stroete

through most of my life as a vegetarian I didn't bother with supplements, and didn't have any problems that I could see....as a near vegan, I did start to take a few like b12 pills and think about protein....
No nutritional problems were ever a concern to any doctors I dealt with...no anaemia for instance my whole life, and I haven't even eaten that healthy a diet for the last 30 years. I am kind of a pasta and beans person, chips, crisps, chocolate etc...no actual dietary deficiencies although I did end up with type 2 diabetes from just eating too many carbs, I guess.

You’re right. All Western countries have similar provisions in their constitutions. I assume we all live in the West? I don’t think Saudi Arabia has that compunction.

People in groups often say 'we should present a united front'... — wax

These groups may not necessarily represent the whole community in their efforts. Though they may believe they speak for everyone they operate as a small collective. Though I feel this conversation is beginning to slide sideways, as it often does.

You’re right. All Western countries have similar provisions in their constitutions. I assume we all live in the West? I don’t think Saudi Arabia has that compunction. — Noah Te Stroete

This is interesting. Because you don’t actually know where I’m from, what sex, what religion, or colour. You debating only my thoughts, where we are all the same, were it not for the pretensions of our culture.

You’re absolutely correct. My brain works by grouping things into categories more so than stringing together different entities. It’s a fault of my neural network that I was just arguing against!

If my culture didn't care about the things I care about - could I still care about them? To what extent am I focused on things for reasons that have nothing to do with causation or truth, but simply prevalence? Are the interpretations I have of things always based on what I want them to be or did I just have to have an opinion about something because everyone else does? — Judaka

I think this is a very interesting point. The gay marriage argument, among others, was that it was ‘the right thing to do’. That’s a very persuasive argument. It became impossible to have a conversation. The argument for blacks is because of history, Colonialism, etc. We all ‘know’ what is right and wrong.

The thing is that what you're saying mostly makes sense only from a racially concerned perspective. Having the same skin colour as me doesn't make you similar to me, what are we celebrating? I know I'll have a hard time convincing people that celebration of different races is a bad thing but when you do that, you're saying race is important. You are highlighting this difference when we want to be doing the opposite. You can't make your race a big deal in a positive way and then be shocked when people start to think racially in unflattering ways.

I'm not really a believer in equality, interpretatively speaking, discrimination is necessary but it doesn't have to be based on race.


There's a difference between something being relevant interpretatively and something being visible. Ask what does it "mean" for someone to be a certain ethnicity and try to reduce the answers you come up with. There are already many other things which are interpretatively relevant but prejudicial like attractiveness, intelligence, temperament, preferences, status, wealth, fashion and so on. To me, racism can only be reduced by replacing "this person is x ethnicity therefore they're probably w y z" with "this person is articulate therefore they're probably "a b c".

I'm not saying people should try to be "colour blind" literally just figuratively and by that I mean interpretatively. It's not necessarily the case that the alternatives are fairer but I think they're less divisive and distracting.

I do find that people who spend a lot of time online are more likely to just deal with ideas and merit because that's what they're used to - seeing as they're used to not even knowing the race, gender, appearance, status and so on.

I'm not really a believer in equality, interpretatively speaking, discrimination is necessary but it doesn't have to be based on race. — Judaka

What is it based on then? Could it be that the discrimination that you condone is ultimately based on race or any other difference that you don't like?

If you're not racially motivated then racial differences shouldn't matter.

I don't like it when people discriminate to draw conclusions which are entirely impossible based on the level of information they have.

I am using discrimination as in "recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another". People value things differently and understand things interpretatively, so they're going to dislike others based on their reasons. I am a moral relativist, I can only argue for the utility of my views. I don't believe racists are objectively wrong, this thread is just about plotting a logical course of action for those who dislike racism. If you disliked sexism though, I'd advocate the same course of action and anything else (though some things aren't as fixable as others due to biological considerations).

I think that unlike race, there are actual differences between cultures, genders and other factors. It all comes back to drawing unreasonable conclusions based on insufficient information or just being objectively wrong in your assertions.

There's a difference between something being relevant interpretatively and something being visible. — Judaka

I’m not suggesting that we can ignore what we see in front of us. What I’m trying to add is that the idea of focusing on difference does not help to overcome the problem of differences. And I also think that when people begin this focusing on the differences they actually create a very basic understanding, or a stereotype, of the two sides. Which is not too far removed from the mentality of racists.

Over the years I’ve developed a feeling that the whole idea of diversity is something that cannot be managed, that it contributes to a greater fragmentation of society that can’t be managed politically. By politically I mean the ability to serve all groups as they see their due.

What happens is that you end up doing a sort of dance trying to accomodate these different ‘cultures’ and trying to find some thread you can apply. So there is great support for one group because of their minority ethnic position, but a problem trying to address some aspect of their cultural you regard as wrong.

Yes, I feel that putting racism aside, indiscriminately treating all cultures as equally valuable is one of the most disgusting ideas around. It makes no sense from any rational perspective, people have just thrown up their hands and said "difference must have merit" which just isn't true. When people conflate race and culture, it really bugs me, we should be able to brutalise bad ideas and let no armor save them.

The egos and identities which rely on groups in general, I think cause problems, people talk about celebrating the group but I don't like it. Individual traits should be celebrated, maybe even ideas but not groups. I don't think that as a particular skin colour that you own a history, that you can take credit for the actions or inventions of others with the same skin colour, that you share the suffering of people with the same skin colour as you more than someone else. T

There are some examples where the positives outweigh the negatives but generally, it introduces a necessarily unproductive factor into the equation. National identity is possibly the best example, I actually think this is pretty good, to feel a responsibility towards other citizens probably makes the country a nicer place to live. Negotiating what is beneficial and what isn't should be part of the wider conversation and attacking negative interpretations is necessary. I believe eliminating race as a major interpretative tool would be best but there are more options, just anything other well-meaning option than what we're doing would be a step in the right direction.