• Ilya B Shambat
    194
    There are many people who have no value for poetry, even some who see it as pathological. Someone wrote on the Internet that poetry is not a cure-all for low self-esteem. In my case it has nothing to do with my self-esteem at all. I started writing poetry when I was 10 and was recognized for it. And I did this in Russia, where poetry was a big thing.

    There are many who claim that poetry is useless or impractical. I see three very useful and highly practical applications for poetry.

    One is that it can allow people to express what they feel or think about someone they care about, and as such can help to improve families, relationships and friendships.

    Another is that it can allow people to articulate and work through their feelings and their thoughts.

    And probably the most important one is that it can communicate one's understanding and realizations to other people and thus help all sorts of people in all sorts of ways.

    Finally, in case of a good poem, you have produced something beautiful – something as such that adds to the civilization and the world.

    In my life poetry has been far from useless. In my life poetry has been the saving grace. It is the reason that I was admitted on a full scholarship to an elite private school in Virginia. It is the reason I have most of my friends. It is the reason I've been with women who were extremely attractive both physically and personally when I am neither. There have been any number of people who have attacked me, frequently very viciously; but there are any number of others who love my poetry and my translations.

    Another common slander against poetry is that it is reflection of mental illness. Of this there are two claims: Either that it comes from personality disorders (such as “sociopathic” or “narcissistic”) and that it comes from chemical disorders such as bipolar or schizophrenia.

    The first is not hard at all to refute. In many places such as France, Russia and Italy, poetry is widely read and highly regarded by normal people, which would not be the case if it was limited to people with personality disorders. Poetry was highly respected in World War II generation, which unlike baby boomers has never been accused of any disorders at all. If someone is a sociopath and does not have emotions, he would not be attracted to a pursuit that extols feelings; he would be much more likely to become a businessman or a lawyer. As for narcissistic disorder, it would pathologize everyone from Gates and Rockefeller in business to Trump and Clinton in politics. There may be narcissists in poetry; but I do not see why there would be more narcissists in poetry than in business, politics, media, academia or law.

    In case of disorders such as epilepsy, bipolar and schizophrenia, poetry may actually be a way to make something good out of a bad situation. In epilepsy there is heightened contact between right brain and left brain, which makes available for verbal expression intuitive understanding. That can be very useful for creative pursuits, and Dostoyevsky, who was an epileptic, produced some of the greatest literature in history, writing his greatest work during his epileptic fits. In bipolar and schizophrenia, there are available for conscious use the parts of the brain that are not normally accessed. This can likewise be very useful for creativity; and people with these disorders can achieve naturally the kinds of states that people in 1960s attempted to achieve with LSD.

    Another claim that I've heard – this time from an editor in DC – is that the reason that poetry has become big in Russia is long winters. I have news for this person. Poetry is big in place like Lebanon and Greece that do not have long winters. There have been excellent poets coming from warm zones such as Iran, Mexico and Chile. Many of the better poets in America are black.

    Then there is the claim that poetry is unrealistic. The response to that is that human world is what people make it, and something becomes realistic when people make it so. If there is greater demand for poetry and for arts in general, then more people who are willing to supply such things will be able to make ends meet. The solution is to stimulate the demand by getting more people to value these things. There is nothing unrealistic about this; it has taken place in the past even in the American history, and there is no reason why it cannot happen now.

    I want poetry to become as big a thing in the English-speaking world as it is in Russia. There have been any number of excellent English-speaking poets in the past. Probably the biggest problem has been that poetry self-destructed. It was turned into cold cynical abominations called post-modernism and avant-garde. When I took a magnificent visual artist named Julia to attend an avant-garde poetry reading in DC, she said, “This is not poetry.” On the Internet group rec.arts.poems, I found the least poetic mentality of anywhere I have been. These people not only produced absolute rubbish, but they were absolutely vicious toward people whose poetry actually was poetry.

    The best way to make poetry a big thing in the English-speaking world is to produce real poetry. Poetry that aims for – and achieves – things such as beauty and passion. It is to leave in the dust the post-modern and avant-garde gibberish and to produce something beautiful. People in Russia read poetry that is being produced in Russia. Using similar styles to produce poetry in English should create poetry in English that people actually want to read.

    I can do the contemporary styles as well. For the most part, I choose not to. Julia told me also after the reading, “I hope you never write this way.” She was able to do excellent abstract art, but she preferred for her work to reflect classical sensibilities. I took the themes in her art and turned it into poetry. The result was a book that made me – and her – the talk of DC poetry scene.

    I want to resurrect poetry. And that means clearing away both the misconceptions about poetry and the post-modern and avant-garde nonsense and producing poetry that aims for – and achieves – beauty and passion.

    Things that poetry is meant to be about, and things that have been present in poetry that people actually want to read.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Can we write science and math in verse? I'd love that. The more beautiful something is, the easier it is to remember.

    You say poetry is expression. Is there a standard you're invoking when you say avant-garde or post-modernism is bad. Is art, poetry in this case, definable in terms such that we can distinguish bad poetry from good poetry?

    Can you give me a poetry 101 lesson? Thanks
  • Brett
    3k


    I once saw a teacher writing out a maths formula on the white board, explaining it as he went. When he was finished I felt compelled to say “That was pure poetry”.

    Sorry, Ilya B Shambat, I know that doesn’t address your post.
  • Deleteduserrc
    2.8k
    In my life poetry has been far from useless. In my life poetry has been the saving grace. It is the reason that I was admitted on a full scholarship to an elite private school in Virginia. It is the reason I have most of my friends. It is the reason I've been with women who were extremely attractive both physically and personally when I am neither.Ilya B Shambat

    That's a lot of pressure to put on your poems. If you see it that way - if someone were to criticize one of your poems, then they would be threatening your entire being. How is it possible to take any sort of criticism under such circumstances? But maybe you're mistaken about why people hang out with you- often people who know us value things in us we are ourselves are unaware of.
  • RegularGuy
    2.6k


    I wrote this verse when in my early twenties:

    Oh, troubled woes of the undetermined mind!
    What sweet placidity
    would sure countenance prevail!
    Aphrodite, make haste with your decision on me.
    For the mind cannot decipher
    what the heart was meant to read.
    Entrance me with a spell of adoration.
    Sicken me with a disease of the heart.
    For reason kneels before you,
    Impotent against the torments of your art.

    It’s not the best, but occasionally I will write a poem for fun.

    Do you know Paul Nachbar? If not, I suggest contacting him through Facebook. He wouldn’t mind I’m sure. He has written tons of poetry and much of it very good. You can tell him I say, “hi!”

    Anyway, keep writing for your own sake even if it never becomes big here. Most true poets (unlike me) feel compelled to write anyway, and it is good to keep your mind working in a way that keeps it on what is beautiful in this often ugly world. The world needs poets even if it doesn’t know it.

    Regards,

    Noah
  • Ilya B Shambat
    194
    I can give you a link to my poetry site:
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    I like your Truth poetry especially the last stanza:

    Truth yields to lies
    And then soars like a lark
    When people's eyes
    Are tired of the dark.

    :up:

    Let me try:

    Lonely bird
    Sing a song
    Truth not heard
    Oh! for so long

    :grin:
  • Josh Alfred
    226
    It seems to me that there is more business in writing music than in writing poetry these days. Music seems more alive than poetry does. I could never write a decent song but I have written poetry.

    I would totally agree that most of it is self-expression and that it does have aesthetic value. For you even, it has come to have more value than for some of us who do dapple with the art. I myself have put together a number of my poems, but all in vain, as my poetry has not bested the Christ like phenomena of resurrecting anything.

    I have friends that are poets on the side, and they are some of the most sensitive and astute people I have ever known.
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    I tend to think of poetry as the antidote to propaganda. Poetry adds meaning and propaganda destroys it. But beware, all that rhythms is not poetry - Beanz doz not mean Heinz, freshness cannot by any means be put back, nor can the impossible be cleaned up. Thus saith the poet.
  • Ilya B Shambat
    194
    Looks good Josh, I especially liked "When A Poet Fades."
  • RegularGuy
    2.6k


    Well, your ignoring me is just plain rude. Is Objectivism your religion and you didn’t like what I said about your beloved Ayn Rand in the lounge? It was directed at a very specific group of people based in Wisconsin, and they know who they are.
  • Brett
    3k
    If someone is a sociopath and does not have emotions, he would not be attracted to a pursuit that extols feelings; he would be much more likely to become a businessman or a lawyer.Ilya B Shambat

    This is an amazing statement. Wallace Stevens and T. S. Elliot both worked in a place of business. Of course you may not think they’re actually poets.
  • Ilya B Shambat
    194
    Sorry if I ignored you. My philosophy is not objectivism, I call it integrationism. I look for ways to combine non-valued (reality-based) dualities in a way that makes the most of positive interaction. Thus, we approach nature and civilization with the eye toward creating a high-tech civilization that is non-obtrusive to the environment, or in matters such as man and female we support each side's capacity for doing right and confront their capacity for doing wrong. Ayn Rand had some valid points, however she was dead wrong about a number of things such as the environment. She affirmed the side of life that is civilization while denying the side of life that is the environment. The greens make the opposite error. In fact we need both nature and civilization, and both worlds must be in the best shape that they can be.
  • RegularGuy
    2.6k
    I think we will get along then. Poets are cool.
  • Brett
    3k
    I want poetry to become as big a thing in the English-speaking world as it is in Russia.Ilya B Shambat

    The best way to make poetry a big thing in the English-speaking world is to produce real poetry. Poetry that aims for – and achieves – things such as beauty and passion. People in Russia read poetry that is being produced in Russia. Using similar styles to produce poetry in English should create poetry in English that people actually want to read.Ilya B Shambat

    If I’m right in understanding where you’re coming from, you want poetry in the English speaking world to achieve the same level of affect as poetry does in Russian, such as beauty and passion. And you also talk about style being the way to achieve this. You also talk about ‘real poetry’, presumably meaning Russian poetry, or something of that standard.

    But you’re also talking about two vastly different cultures: Russia, and the English speaking world. If poetry is meant to express thoughts and feelings then the way that’s done most effectively is to speak ‘the language’ of the people, otherwise it’s an introduced, or alien, idiom.

    Contemporary works need to speak to people in a form that reaches them, not just reaches out, but convinces them. Consequently poetry in the English speaking world (though not restricted to the English speaking world) broke out of its traditional form and content and developed what was regarded as more immediate and contemporary way of connecting. Obviously, as you observed, along the way some of it went off the rails.

    To produce work like the Russians (and I don’t know what years you are referring to) for the English speaking world seems like a formula for failure, or a very small audience.
  • Ilya B Shambat
    194
    I actually had a fairly large audience. I seek to produce poetry that appeals to people and that reaches people. In this I go to Russian styles in the English language. The result is poetry that is readable and that people find worthy of reading. That as opposed to the avant-garde crap that poetry has gone to its harm.
  • Brett
    3k


    I don’t think you read my post very carefully.
  • T Clark
    13.9k


    "There are many who claim that poetry is useless or impractical. I see three very useful and highly practical applications for poetry.

    One is that it can allow people to express what they feel or think about someone they care about, and as such can help to improve families, relationships and friendships.

    Another is that it can allow people to articulate and work through their feelings and their thoughts.
    And probably the most important one is that it can communicate one's understanding and realizations to other people and thus help all sorts of people in all sorts of ways.

    Finally, in case of a good poem, you have produced something beautiful – something as such that adds to the civilization and the world."


    Seems you have a different attitude toward poetry than I do. I write a lot, mostly non-fiction/technical things - reports, letters, plans, technical specifications. That type of writing is something I love and I'm good at it. I've written some fiction and some poetry. Not much. In particular, I haven't written poetry in a long time.

    As for reading, I read a lot of non-fiction; technical, history, science, philosophy; and fiction but very little poetry. I find that there are few poets whom I get, who move me. Robert Frost, Carl Dennis, sometimes William Shakespeare. Some poetry I love just because of the way it sounds, the way it feels in my mouth - "Song of Hiawatha," "Jaberwocky," "The Raven."

    Each of these types of reading and writing put me in different places; emotional, intellectual, spiritual; than the others. That's the purpose of reading and writing to me. Obviously, some writing does have a practical purpose, especially the types of non-fiction I write.

    Poetry in particular, both reading and writing, puts me in a different place than I ever would go otherwise. The poetry I write tends to be very visual and short. Seemingly out of nowhere an image will pop into my head. When I pay attention to it, I find that the poem has already written itself. That is an amazing, exhilarating process.

    As for getting Americans to read more poetry, I don't think there's much you can do. I think it's a cultural, spiritual thing. I guess Russians live in that poetry place I was talking about a lot more than Americans do.
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