I have felt an immensity of emotions myself, probably due to the complexity at which I "sum" the world, as you have shared here. I have felt deep emotions. At one point my visions of the world were so immense that I almost cried tears of blood. Thanks to medication, my emotional senses have been numbed. Now its more apathy and occasional placidity that make up my emotional life. "Duty to Joy" not so much, but to each his own.

I don't know if I am particularly sensitive, or particularly insensitive. Probably, I haven't conveyed anything very clearly. But consider the condition of bereavement. One suffers, and to refuse the suffering is to deny the value of what has been lost. Mourning is thus a celebration. My pain of loss honours the life that has ended.

I gladly drink the bitter cup, and in relation to other threads that are current, if it is my place to foresee and mourn the ending of civilisation, the ending of mankind, the ending of life on Earth even; to witness some, and imagine some, and experience some of the horror and pain of that multiple ending, then my duty and my joy is to embrace it all, and refuse the blindfold as our folly receives its inevitable payment.

I put it here in philosophy of religion, because it is faith beyond reason and beyond the frivolity of mere fact. 'Take, eat, this is my flesh.' Will you measure these truths with a human device? What value has that? Eat, or eat not; there is nothing to argue about.

Thread hymn:

I don't know if I am particularly sensitive, or particularly insensitive. Probably, I haven't conveyed anything very clearly. But consider the condition of bereavement. One suffers, and to refuse the suffering is to deny the value of what has been lost. Mourning is thus a celebration. My pain of loss honours the life that has ended. — unenlightened

I enjoyed reading your OP; clearly a sensitive reflection - why would you doubt that ?
It reminded me of a Christian outlook and a book written by C.S. Lewis ' Surprised by Joy'.
From
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/877675-surprised-by-joy-the-shape-of-my-early-life:

" I have been emboldened to write of it because I notice that a man seldom mentions what he had supposed to be his most idiosyncratic sensations without receiving from at least one (often more) of those present the reply, 'What! Have you felt that too? I always thought I was the only one.” 
― C.S. Lewis, Surprised by Joy: The Shape of My Early Life

Strange how we can think we are the only ones to experience a tingle when a piece of music or a singer hits the right notes. If asked 'What did you think of that ?' during the interval it is easy to say 'Beautiful' but how often can we find the words to share the raw experience of joy, or awe.

Same with mourning a loss. From wiki:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surprised_by_Joy

Surprised by Joy is an allusion to William Wordsworth's poem, "Surprised By Joy — Impatient As The Wind", relating an incident when Wordsworth forgot the death of his beloved daughter:[citation needed]

Surprised by joy — impatient as the Wind
I turned to share the transport — Oh! with whom
But Thee, deep buried in the silent tomb,
That spot which no vicissitude can find?
Love, faithful love, recalled thee to my mind —
But how could I forget thee? Through what power,
Even for the least division of an hour,
Have I been so beguiled as to be blind
To my most grievous loss? — That thought's return
Was the worst pang that sorrow ever bore,
Save one, one only, when I stood forlorn,
Knowing my heart's best treasure was no more;
That neither present time, nor years unborn
Could to my sight that heavenly face restore.

----------
And, of course, the mention of Wordsworth brings to mind that host of golden daffodils.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Wandered_Lonely_as_a_Cloud

"...Continuous as the stars that shine
and twinkle on the Milky Way,
They stretched in never-ending line
along the margin of a bay:
Ten thousand saw I at a glance,
tossing their heads in sprightly dance..."


Your OP similarly reflecting lines of sight flashing in the moment:

"Seeing the perfect line of the gull's flight, hearing the subtle silence behind the chuckling kettle, noticing the silver beads running along the washing-line. The best I can do, the best I can make of it, is that at this moment, this life, this dissatisfaction, this waiting, is joyful - I want to be here. Add this moment to the plus-side in your dismal calculation."

Beautiful.

put it here in philosophy of religion, because it is faith beyond reason and beyond the frivolity of mere fact. — unenlightened

It is appropriately placed, even if I lost my religious joy some time ago.
We can all experience the awesome wonder. If we but look. No duty required.
Thanks for bringing some thoughtful joy...

The best I can do, the best I can make of it, is that at this moment, this life, this dissatisfaction, this waiting, is joyful - I want to be here. Add this moment to the plus-side in your dismal calculation. — unenlightened

I don't get it.

Excellent choice. I just think of spreadsheets and traffic. It doesn't give me joy.

You sound depressed and you unfortunately use your advanced ability to reason to justify it, even to the more unfortunate level of rejecting the optimistic as unreasonable.

I put it here in philosophy of religion, because it is faith beyond reason and beyond the frivolity of mere fact. 'Take, eat, this is my flesh.' Will you measure these truths with a human device? What value has that? Eat, or eat not; there is nothing to argue about. — unenlightened

What are you asking?

Thanks for bringing some thoughtful joy... — Amity

That was joy? I shudder to think what pain is. The best that was was a method for enduring pain.

Real joy derives from feeling a sense of purpose beyond the sounds of the tea kettle and the fluttering of the birds outside.

You sound depressed — Hanover

You are not listening.

Actually I am.

Here's what I heard:

I'm looking at the greyness of slate and cloud and gull, I'm looking at the aggression at every moment of nature, and the poverty and ugliness of the manmade rooftop desert, and making the best of it — unenlightened

You describe coping, not joy.

Thanks for bringing some thoughtful joy...
— Amity

That was joy? I shudder to think what pain is. The best that was was a method for enduring pain. — Hanover

For me, yes. Thoughtful joy. Perhaps I am on the same wavelength...having been accused of being a killjoy elsewhere by a different kind of joy rider.

Unenlightened's words spoke to me. Others might dance to another tune...c'est la vie.

Very well. I just see this discussion as trying to convince one's self to be joyful despite it all. I find joy because of it all.

You describe coping, not joy. — Hanover

You're not listening to me telling you you're not listening. Listen to me telling you I'm not depressed, not coping, but joyful, and stop telling me what what I say must mean I feel.

Very well. I just see this discussion as trying to convince one's self to be joyful despite it all. I find joy because of it all. — Hanover

Ah well. Sometimes people see what they want to see...and disregard the rest.

Simon and Garfunkel - the Boxer

I am just a poor boy
Though my story's seldom told
I have squandered my resistance
For a pocket full of mumbles, such are promises
All lies and jests
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest.

The last line of the song is "I guess it doesn't matter anyway."

And if you just look at the words, you might find something indicative of nihilistic lack of meaning. And how very far from the truth that would be. Listen to the passion of the music, and find the depth of significance in its not mattering.

And I turn to the world with new eyes, seeing it all as if for the first time because I know I'm close to the last. The world reflected by a dew drop. A child playing with her guardian Rottweiler.

And I can't start on the boundless love I have for everything we were. I can only breathe it in and out.

-- a frank that was, and so will always have been.

You're not listening to me telling you you're not listening. Listen to me telling you I'm not depressed, not coping, but joyful, and stop telling me what what I say must mean I feel. — unenlightened

Fine. You're jubilant.

Fine. You're jubilant. — Hanover

You're still not listening.

:sparkle: :pray:

I love that frank. :heart:

Hmm, this is making me think... perhaps the expectation that someday everything will be okay again, every wrong made right, every tear vanished.

You're still not listening. — unenlightened

You can only tell me that my words don't accurately reflect what you're feeling, but not that I'm not listening because you don't know what I'm actually doing. It's sort of like if someone says things that sound depressing, but then they tell me they're not depressed, then I have to believe they're not depressed and not impose my interpretations on them.

Anyway, this whole thread is getting touchy feely like everyone is going to start hugging each other and having this feeling of closeness and unity. I mean, everyone but me because I don't listen. Either that or I refuse to listen because it seems so missing the point. My enlightenment is just different I suppose. I see the divine in the actual divine I guess as opposed to a kitty cat jumping on a child's lap, or whatever.

You can only tell me that my words don't accurately reflect what you're feeling, but not that I'm not listening because you don't know what I'm actually doing. It's sort of like if someone says things that sound depressing, but then they tell me they're not depressed, then I have to believe they're not depressed and not impose my interpretations on them. — Hanover

People who are listening do not talk about my feelings, but about their own.

I see the divine in the actual divine I guess as opposed to a kitty cat jumping on a child's lap, or whatever. — Hanover

That is mockery. Such disrespect is uncalled for and objectionable. I am talking about the death of my mother, my sister, my first wife, as my personal experience of bereavement, and you liken it some sentimental trash of your own imagining. You have no idea, absolutely none.

Either that or I refuse to listen because it seems so missing the point. My enlightenment is just different I suppose. I see the divine in the actual divine I guess as opposed to a kitty cat jumping on a child's lap, or whatever. — Hanover

What is the point that it seems to be missing ?
What do you mean by 'enlightenment' ?
What is the 'divine' ? What is the difference between the 'actual' divine as opposed to...what...the joy that can be found by ordinary mortals ? Even as they cope with life in general.
What is wrong with having a 'sense of closeness and unity' - even if such manifested itself...and why wouldn't you feel included...or is it that you reject it. For your own personal reasons...

That is mockery. Such disrespect is uncalled for and objectionable. I am talking about the death of my mother, my sister, my first wife, as my personal experience of bereavement, and you liken it some sentimental trash of your own imagining. You have no idea, absolutely none. — unenlightened

Yeah, well I had no way of knowing you were talking about such profound loss, so I couldn't have been mocking you unless I actually knew that. So you have no idea, absolutely none, of what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about sentimental trash. I'm talking about the divine, but you're not listening.

As to my initial assessment that you are depressed, I find it hard to relent because nothing you've said suggests otherwise. I can only said that your thoughts are depressing and reference coping, but whatever. It's not clear that the OP had much point anyway. It certainly didn't ask any question that I can decipher. The best I can decipher is that we're to validate your feelings and tell you the beauty of your prose, but if we don't, we're being disrespectful.

I had no way of knowing — Hanover

But everyone else did.

What is the point that it seems to be missing ?
What do you mean by 'enlightenment' ?
What is the 'divine' ? What is the difference between the 'actual' divine as opposed to...what...the joy that can be found by ordinary mortals ? Even as they cope with life in general.
What is wrong with having a 'sense of closeness and unity' - even if such manifested itself...and why wouldn't you feel included...or is it that you reject it. For your own personal reasons... — Amity

Fair questions.

The OP was poetic, and obviously subject to interpretation. As we are to learn, it references deep loss suffered by the author. Had it specifically referenced such loss, the only appropriate response would be to express condolences, but it wasn't. Based upon that, I'm not even sure what we ought be talking about here, but this is what I brought to the table, as it were.

I simply see the divine in God. That's where I see it. Sure, I see it in all the objects of creation, but I don't see God as creation. The closeness and unity you reference is a beautiful thing I admit, but it's just another aspect of God, and not God. As I've noted, I don't know where to take this because I don't see it as philosophy or even philosophy or religion, but as a personal expression of faith. You have every right to tell me it makes no sense and it's just my way of interpreting meaning and the world.

I guess my question is what is the question we're to be answering in this thread?

But everyone else did. — unenlightened

Unless you provided the factual basis elsewhere, I don't know how they could have. Their responses certainly didn't reference it, nor did they offer condolences, which would have been appropriate given what you've now said.

But, to the extent I missed the factual basis you've since provided, please provide a cite to where it was clarified to me but missed. Otherwise, the best you can say is that I failed to decipher your poetry, which is true.

I guess my question is what is the question we're to be answering in this thread? — Hanover

Yes. you have no idea what I am talking about, as I have already pointed out to you and yet you feel entitled to litter the thread with criticisms and cod psychoanalysis on the basis of your incomprehension, and repeating them when they have been explicitly denied.

I don't know how they could have. Their responses certainly didn't reference it, nor did they offer condolences, which would have been appropriate given what you've now said.
— Hanover

at this moment, this life, this dissatisfaction, this waiting, is joyful - I want to be here. Add this moment to the plus-side in your dismal calculation. — unenlightened

But no, you refuse. You add it to the minus side.

consider the condition of bereavement. One suffers, and to refuse the suffering is to deny the value of what has been lost. Mourning is thus a celebration. — unenlightened

What is so hard to understand? Bereavement is the loss of a loved one. I'm not interested in anyone's condolences, that is just the continuation of your ignorant insults. I speak personally to keep things close to the ground, and you use my openness as a weapon, but you miss the target, because I am not particularly self-concerned.

I guess my question is what is the question we're to be answering in this thread?
— Hanover

Yes. you have no idea what I am talking about, as I have already pointed out to you and yet you feel entitled to litter the thread with criticisms and cod psychoanalysis on the basis of your incomprehension, and repeating them when they have been explicitly denied. — unenlightened

What is so hard to understand? — unenlightened

What is the question within the OP that you wish answered?