Jawohl, mein guter Mann — Bitter Crank

Say what?

It is understandable that in ghetto culture, "respect" is such a big issue. People who are residents of the various ghettos "don't get no respect" so have to be hyper alert to interpersonal signs of disrespect. — Bitter Crank

You’re preaching to the white trash, former ghetto living choir. I know all about this.

My question is that why does Western society display a deficit in the process of respect and regard for their elders?
— Wallows

I am not sure they do. If you look at our various social problems--very inadequate housing for the poor, deteriorating schools, an underclass, environmental neglect (and abuse), food-borne illness (because food has too much fat, sugar, and non-nutritious additives in it) and so forth, it would appear that disrespect and low regard is an equal-opportunity problem.
— Bitter Crank

How so? I'm not apt enough to see the merit to that conclusion. — Wallows

There's an apt for that.

It must be that I expressed myself inadequately.

What I mean is that it isn't just the elderly that are given minimal respect. Respect is conditional on having ample resources, because on one level, cash is what we respect. Nobody is going around disrespecting Michael Bloomberg, Warren Buffett, or Bill Gates--all three more or less elderly.

"On one level" because on other levels people use different standards. For instance, we may respect people on the basis of education, verbal facility, good looks (even in old age), and so on.

We all want respect, one way or another.

Jawohl, mein guter Mann
— Bitter Crank

Say what? — Noah Te Stroete

Yes, my good man.

Are you calling me a dewlap? Because my google home hub is bad at translating.

LOL. Ok. Never mind.

There's an apt for that.

It must be that I expressed myself inadequately.

What I mean is that it isn't just the elderly that are given minimal respect. Respect is conditional on having ample resources, because on one level, cash is what we respect. Nobody is going around disrespecting Michael Bloomberg, Warren Buffett, or Bill Gates--all three more or less elderly.

"On one level" because on other levels people use different standards. For instance, we may respect people on the basis of education, verbal facility, good looks (even in old age), and so on.

We all want respect, one way or another. — Bitter Crank

On the whole of it, I don't think it boils down to class. See the movie, Being There for example.

Jerzy Kosinski's Being There is a great satirical story, but what do you think it illustrates in the context of maturity?

Addlepated Chance Gardner is hardly a model we elderly want to emulate.

[Addlepated - confused, mixed up, eccentric]

Not really related to maturity; but, illustrative that a socioeconomic conception of a "class" upon which the concept of "maturity" or "respect" or "prestigiousness" is endowed, can be easily fooled by an idiot or con man or even gardener.

"Well, women are known in the field of ethics for their sense of care and compassion that is a somewhat inherent feature of women rather than men. I am only contesting your stipulated definition that seems to be guided by some masculine guiding principle or force."

Do you actually know any women? You should be careful about talking about their "inherent features." As for my "masculine guiding principle" .... Well, anyway. Tell me, how does me describing things to you that I've observed about people's feelings about old people turn into me endorsing those feelings?

how does me describing things to you that I've observed about people's feelings about old people turn into me endorsing those feelings? — T Clark

That’s the mistake I made. My bad.

You mean you've never heard of confirmation bias?

I am very, very old. Do you know how I know that, BC? It's because I'm almost as old as you are.

As I think you know, I wasn't trying to put out a definitive listing of why people don't show respect for us old guys. I just wanted to lay out the kinds of feelings that might apply. They're not exotic feelings rising up like evil spirits out of the dark depths of our souls. They're just regular old human feelings. A little shameful, but, we are not responsible for our feelings, we're responsible for our behavior.

we are not responsible for our feelings, we're responsible for our behavior. — T Clark

True. But where do you stand on beliefs? Are we responsible for them?

No other way, I see.

No other way, I see. — Wallows

Huh?

Well, we must be responsible for our beliefs too, no?

I think we are to an extent. But that’s debatable. One has to be aware of all the nuances of a given item before one can be held responsible for holding a belief about that item. Perhaps it isn’t always in our control what we are aware of.

Yes, we must reality test the truth aptness of our beliefs as the way we are.

Yes, we must reality test the truth aptness of our beliefs as the way we are. — Wallows

Interesting. Could you expand on this?

"True. But where do you stand on beliefs? Are we responsible for them?"

We are responsible for our behavior. That's it. Ever. Always.

I believe that it can be done through reason and rationality. To ascertain the validity of beliefs as they present themselves uninhibitedly.

We are responsible for our behavior. That's it. Ever. Always. — T Clark

I think I agree. However, what about the white nationalist? As long as he treats people with respect he is not responsible for his hateful beliefs? Just an example.

"I think I agree. However, what about the white nationalist? As long as he treats people with respect he is not responsible for his hateful beliefs? Just an example."

Of course. Absolutely. Keeping in mind that speech is behavior.

I think I agree with that.

Individualism teaches us that there is nothing more important than our own happiness and well-being. Caring for our elders and all of the inconveniences it brings, doesn't fit into that picture. The elderly are seen as a burden.

Grandparents used to be part of the family unit and have an important role in bringing up their grandchildren. In many ways they do a better job at it than the actual parents. Perhaps their current lack of involvement helps to explain the deficiency of today's youth.

There are a number of possible reasons - some likely and/or more prominent than others.

What I’d like to opint out is that in more stable countries (economically and historically stable) children have more freedoms, adn young adults hav more freedoms. They are less reliant upon their parents adn their parents are, generally speaking, more willing to let them go their own way. The thing with freedom is it comes with a price. The greater economic freedom seen in more “developed” (stable) countries means parents are not so reliant upon their children to nurse them in old age. In other countries parents woudl have multiple children because it used to be more common for half of them to die leaving them without anyone to look after them - or simply without a “family” regardless of the boon of financial support.

Old and young have been disrespected over time in roughly equal amounts I’d guess. The current era, teh post-industrial age, and the current age of communication/information, is expanding certain freedoms and we’re not yet able to see the price we’ve paid a societies and as a new singular human society (connected for the first time in our history on such a magnitude).

The next “-ism” to be played out in the politcal sphere could well be “ageism”. The sexism debate will never disappear (at least no time soon), but it does feel like it’s waning a little now having done it’s main job from the 60’s onwards. The differences between generations - as in their cultural perspectives - has certainly been stretched out like a concertina with greater distances seemingly increasing more and more. At the same time we have to hit a point where we have no choice but to become awake to these changes because they cannot be willfully ignored forever. As we come to terms with this I think we’ll become more forgiving of what seem like so-called “dated” or “old-fashioned” ideas. Perhaps we’ll willfully try to revive some ideas that currently seem dusty and out of place in todays ever exponentially changing world?

As for what “maturity” means? Not a lot to me really. If someone is open to different points of view wihtout feeling the need to constantly pile on hostility then I’d guess this is what people call “maturity.” Everyone is different, but there is certainly something to be said for life experience over base intellectual capacities - an ol uneducated fool is probably more worthwhile listening to than some universoty intellectual in their 20’s, simply because they are living time-capsules. I’s also say that growing old, even from 16 years to 20 is worth attention. We do change and if we can appreciate how we do change honestly we can then come to respect the possible changes even older people have seen and gone through. That is invaliable information that can be readily mined simply by talking to both older AND younger people.

There is value to all ages. Some information gathered from each age group is inevitably more valuable than the other in some areas. Interacting with children is hugely beneficial in understanding both your own history and that of others that come before you.

One thing that occurs to me here is the question of where it is harder to appreciate younger or older people? At what stages in our lives does appreciation for each arbitrary age grouping wax or wane more?

Perhaps their current lack of involvement helps to explain the deficiency of today's youth. — Tzeentch

I’ve no idea where you live, but things have changed a bit. Where I live Grandparents are now the unpaid careers of their grandchildren. In some cases they’re more involved with the children than their parents.

My question is that why does Western society display a deficit in the process of respect and regard for their elders? — Wallows

There’s a bit of generalisation going on here and the posts seems to conflate elderly with maturity. But not all of the elderly are the same, even though they all look old. Some elderly people don’t treat others with respect, or they haven’t aged well, or they have never matured.

The generalised treatment of the elderly seems to me to be similar to the generalisation of teenagers. What is there about the two that’s similar?

People are like cheeses; the good ones get better with age, but the bad ones get worse.

In times of stability, the wisdom of the old is a valuable resource, but in times of rapid change, the wisdom of the old is more so out of date and thus foolishness.

In times of chaos, the only wisdom is neither old nor young and is not founded on knowledge at all, but on applied ignorance.

What I mean is that it isn't just the elderly that are given minimal respect. Respect is conditional on having ample resources, because on one level, cash is what we respect. Nobody is going around disrespecting Michael Bloomberg, Warren Buffett, or Bill Gates--all three more or less elderly.

"On one level" because on other levels people use different standards. For instance, we may respect people on the basis of education, verbal facility, good looks (even in old age), and so on.

We all want respect, one way or another. — Bitter Crank

Yep, agreed. This issue goes to the heart of our culture. (And exposes its weaknesses, imho).

What is that line from the movie Pretty Woman? “They aren’t nice to people... they’re nice to credit cards”. If someone has amassed a fortune, they are almost guaranteed a best seller if they write a book. As though every word from a millionaire is pure golden wisdom that will sink into the reader’s brain and guide them on the path to success. The prosperity Gospel, either religious and secular.

However, I can see why people want the top of the mountain, the brass ring. Middle class and the Middle way may appear decimated and desolate. A balanced “give-and-take” approach (to respect, support, work, etc.) may appear outdated. The extremes are now (supposedly or at least seemingly) where the action is. It is the gambling, risk-everything mindset that is so prevalent that it is almost invisible. We are in the decade of desperate measures.

But this, I would propose, might simply be the cumulative effect of advertising (ie propaganda), and have about as much substance as a glittering Las Vegas sign.