I did a thread on this (Dark Triad Theory).

do either of these models explain why people would have these traits?

it seems to address a problem like the shootings, one might have to address the cause; as to why the person did them.

Horrible acts may be carried out by normal people. Hate and powerlessness combine into a dangerous cocktail and will do more to compel a person to such acts than a mental illness will.

Could these theories and teachings help in preventing further pointlessly violent tragedies? Have either ideas helped you in your emotional and ethical lives? A comparison and contrast of the two theories might also be informative. — 0 thru 9

The "Dark Triad" focuses on the pathology of a relatively small group of people. The "Three Poisons" focus on characteristics of all of us. For that reason, it seems to me the poisons provide a better basis for understanding.

do either of these models explain why people would have these traits?

it seems to address a problem like the shootings, one might have to address the cause; as to why the person did them. — wax

The Wikipedia link for Dark Triad above goes into some scientific research into the topic, including nature vs nurture and others. I tend to think of such things as analogous to a virus, mold, or bacteria. The spores (so to speak) are seemingly everywhere. One can perhaps strengthen their psychological or spiritual immune system to not give the destructive elements any fuel. I would wager that few people could have a constant input of unbalanced, stressful, violent stimuli and remain unaffected. At least I imagine it would be more difficult to maintain an equilibrium. How the individual interprets the situation and identifies themself appears to be a critical factor.

Horrible acts may be carried out by normal people. Hate and powerlessness combine into a dangerous cocktail and will do more to compel a person to such acts than a mental illness will. — Tzeentch

I would tend to agree with that, in my observations as a non-professional. There seem to be many instances of people apparently free of mental illness doing acts of extreme violence and crime. Each person could be thought to have a type of nuclear power within them. Whether it provides energy or destruction is up to each individual, it would seem.

The "Dark Triad" focuses on the pathology of a relatively small group of people. The "Three Poisons" focus on characteristics of all of us. For that reason, it seems to me the poisons provide a better basis for understanding. — T Clark

Good point, I would say. Perhaps the Dark Triad might represent the extreme danger zone of the Three Poisons. I tend to think of the Buddhist concept often in trying to gauge and evaluate my actions. Both things I've done, and those under consideration. The teaching provides a helpful metric concerning choices, imho.

I did a thread on this (Dark Triad Theory). — Anaxagoras

Please provide a link to the thread.

The "Dark Triad" focuses on the pathology of a relatively small group of people. The "Three Poisons" focus on characteristics of all of us. For that reason, it seems to me the poisons provide a better basis for understanding. — T Clark

My thinking exactly. As usual, the ancients have an understanding of psychology, whereas the moderns attempt an overview that excludes themselves and makes psychopathology 'other'.

Why am I unreasonable?
Just because...

But find a basis for understanding this, or maybe just go and do likewise: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/16/friendship-over-fear-manchester-man-shows-solidarity-with-local-mosque?CMP=fb_gu&fbclid=IwAR2NRVGNLnXKcAHAAF41IJMbd9zzh9zJPfdWeaBMhPOJDz7ndZX9AAN2F9Q

My thinking exactly. As usual, the ancients have an understanding of psychology, whereas the moderns attempt an overview that excludes themselves and makes psychopathology 'other'.

Why am I unreasonable?
Just because... — unenlightened

Here's one of my favorite songs. If I remember correctly, it was based on real events. Some people hate it because they say it's heartless and makes fun of tragedy. I disagree strongly. I find it moving. It gets at a very deep truth about all of us. Sorry, bad video.

My thinking exactly. As usual, the ancients have an understanding of psychology, whereas the moderns attempt an overview that excludes themselves and makes psychopathology 'other'. — unenlightened

Ha! I didn't think of it that way, but that makes sense. A bit overly objective, perhaps. Let him without neurosis cast the first Prozac! :sweat:

The not-so-humble narrator of the movie Amadeus, Salieri, is a character who seems like he could be a poster child for the Dark Triad. Scheming, vain, and violent (at least in his younger days as he recounts the tragic tale), he is willing to sacrifice all he believes in along with the life of Mozart. When he places his formerly revered crucifix into the fire, his mind clearly has descended into hell... one logical step after another, right into insanity. It is like he had studied Machiavelliani's original manuscripts, and prefigures the diabolical dealings of Faust in a way.

But luckily for us, the viewer and fellow grasping sinner both, there is a last minute repentance. The sacrifice of his own ego and blood, and his fascinating confession, opens the way to a hard-won redemption. And, if we dare accept it, a redemption for all of us humble "mediocrities everywhere".

I don't agree the Dark Triad describes a small group of people. It describes a lot of successful people in a sick society. Honestly, it has to be considered whether Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy aren't seen in many successful people. How else did they get in high places? By being kind? Right. If you don't think self-interest, manipulation of others, and having to set aside emotions to way too large of an extent isn't required for success in the transactional values of the market society, it would be naive; when the system is a reinforced zero-sums game, people are going to be crooked and unempathetic. Also, be careful of just world fallacy...the human system doesn't positively or negatively reinforce anything but behaviorism, which is at best our extrinsically motivated animal nature (i.e., no inner world, mind or consciousness). How interesting it would be if people were rewarded for being coherent inside and without internal conflict (which comes as much from environmental and social conditions as anything); and those who're ugly and poorly communicated inside would be put in the nick. What a different humans system that would be.

As to what causes murder...a combination of nature and nurture, not one or the other. The nurture side of things, culture and mores, is worthy of more consideration than intellectual laziness showing itself in blaming the individual. After all, the evolutionary mismatch of humans indicates something gone terribly wrong; metabolic syndrome, extremely inordinate work stress, retarded immunity caused by safetyism of folks living in a bubble, gambling, addictions, and so on. People in developed countries are scared to death of communicable diseases, but for some unknown reason accept cancer and heart disease as normal even though these noncommunicable diseases are the outcome of too much work stress and having to live a mechanical lifestyle (environment). There's a spike in deaths after daylight savings time (mechanical) clock changes owing to disrespect of biological clock, why aren't we talking about this killer?

If you take this one environmental killer, mechanicalized time, and ask why it kills...it is revealing. Being compelled to live in perpetual falsity might have something to do with why some people can't handle such constrained life. I.e., time is not mechanical, it is basically feedback between complex systems. Everything that transpires in human institutions does so according to a device which, in itself, obeys no external feedback (it tics away like a militant and merciless slaver), and is as such, violating homeostasis of an organism.

To say that people require more freedom than the automated world allows would be a cogent statement. It is of interest the way some are aligned with the Spirit of Conquest which is seen in so many subsystems of society. Others, who require freedom rebel against being conquered. Also, I've learned that disorder doesn't derive from lack of order, it usually comes from too much order. It is of interest, actually, the masses of people have come to equate survival with a quality and quantity of order that clearly has little to do with survival.

Not that a human doesn't need some extra mental stimulation vis a vis other animals, but to the extent where we are today (virtual reality headsets a norm for kids; funnily enough, in a way, a kid sitting there with his face on the wall is the same thing; pretty damn eerie)? Comfort and convenience and entertainment aren't in any way associated with mental health, clarity, and intrapersonal intelligence. Isn't it patent enough modern man is too overstimulated? And when overstimulated, one tends to neglect needed introspection and contemplation necessary for mental health and to know whether one is oriented and devoted on the side of truth. Evolution appears to be misunderstood a lot of the time. Evolution doesn't care about humans any more than any of the other creatures it spawned. Either humanism will learn to remove itself from the center of its own attention and take what lasts (ecological cycles don't obey man, so man has to learn to obey them) as an example of orientation and devotion, or it will commit collective suicide and succumb to evolution far sooner than necessary. It's suicide because we know what we're doing speeding up planetary cycles, yet don't care; it's like smoking five packs of cigs everyday and ignoring that it is going to kill you eventually.

I feel that being compelled to mental time travel, constantly worrying about the future, has a lot to do with ignorance of an honest appraisal of what is in ourselves and our environment. The human system has done a great job of fooling so many people it will be able to take care of them interminably, and in turn has led people to give up everything to it as though it could stave off death. I.e., if you are on the side of the reality that adapts and evolves, you're already prepping for the the inevitable downfall, since even though it may be far off, it is an indisputable aspect of truth, and if it is an indisputable regard of truth, it is failure to ignore this. And in being prepared, you won't be contributing to said downfall, you will be a part of what adapts (so actually, it isn't even prepping, it's living according to the truth of the way things are). See, humans haven't even adapted as you've been led to believe. Homeostatic feedback is what adapts...no system with externalities is ever adapting. Your organism would instantly die if it were controlled by the same system that controls socio-economic fundamentalisms of man. It's the same for ego ridden people: the stronger the ego, the more narrow-minded and neurotic they are, and the more a part of themselves is left external to the ego to return as a disguised repressed derivative. Mental health dies. The repressed derivative of the planet's mind may come volcanically and in innumerous, devastating natural disasters... Though to put it like this isn't entirely correct. The planet doesn't repress, it is never ignorant of itself, it has no externalities, it has no ego. Actually, since ego is made of instinct, it is instinct with the reins, and it is instinct which enforces planetary feedback in the form of violent derivatives in the individual who has repressed.

I don't agree the Dark Triad describes a small group of people. It describes a lot of successful people in a sick society. Honestly, it has to be considered whether Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy aren't seen in many successful people. How else did they get in high places? By being kind? Right. If you don't think self-interest, manipulation of others, and having to set aside emotions to way too large of an extent isn't required for success in the transactional values of the market society, it would be naive; when the system is a reinforced zero-sums game, people are going to be crooked and unempathetic. Also, be careful of just world fallacy...the human system doesn't positively or negatively reinforce anything but behaviorism, which is at best our extrinsically motivated animal nature (i.e., no inner world, mind or consciousness). How interesting it would be if people were rewarded for being coherent inside and without internal conflict (which comes as much from environmental and social conditions as anything); and those who're ugly and poorly communicated inside would be put in the nick. What a different humans system that would be. — Anthony

Thanks for your post. Perhaps I would not necessarily paint with such a broad brush, for that might risk over-generalization about anyone who is successful. But that quibble aside, I would tend to agree. Skepticism about our cultural modus operandi is a useful tool. One could ask whether our civilization as a whole exhibits the Dark Triad and imbibes the Three Poisons on a daily basis. It goes beyond competition. The goal of our culture seems to be utter and complete domination of all of nature as well as each other. And we are so immune to it that calling attention to it seems pointless. If humans act against the laws of nature, those laws will come down hard on us. And by laws of nature, I mean that no single species can claim the entire earth without damaging it beyond repair. But we as a whole are attempting just that. Our civilization remembers Aesop’s story of the Golden Goose, but can’t imagine that it applies to us on a large scale. No wonder individuals exhibit the Dark Triad. It is our hidden religion, and the god of that dark cult is unlimited Power. Even though unlimited power (as is usually imagined) is unobtainable. It is a hunger that cannot be satisfied.

If you take this one environmental killer, mechanicalized time, and ask why it kills...it is revealing. Being compelled to live in perpetual falsity might have something to do with why some people can't handle such constrained life. I.e., time is not mechanical, it is basically feedback between complex systems. Everything that transpires in human institutions does so according to a device which, in itself, obeys no external feedback (it tics away like a militant and merciless slaver), and is as such, violating homeostasis of an organism. — Anthony

Interesting concept about mechanized time. Might be worthy of a thread to explore it. Given the seeming human tendency to view machines as the ultimate ideal (power being our culture’s true god, as mentioned above), time was bound to be quantified and mechanized. Humans are very flexible with regards to lifestyle. So flexible in fact that one may imagine that humans can live absolutely any manner they choose without consequences. But a branch bent too far will snap.

To say that people require more freedom than the automated world allows would be a cogent statement. It is of interest the way some are aligned with the Spirit of Conquest which is seen in so many subsystems of society. Others, who require freedom rebel against being conquered. Also, I've learned that disorder doesn't derive from lack of order, it usually comes from too much order. It is of interest, actually, the masses of people have come to equate survival with a quality and quantity of order that clearly has little to do with survival. — Anthony

Yes. The most disturbing disorder (to humans) is not found in the wilderness, as harsh and unforgiving as it can seem. It is found of course in unbalanced societies. And this goes even beyond the equitable distribution of wealth, as important as that may be. Until our relationship with the Earth itself is (for lack of a better word) balanced, then our culture and all its laws and interpersonal relationships will continue to be thus imbalanced. And the news will be shocking and tragic, yet somehow not unexpected or surprising.

Alright, if that (IMHO) is the diagnosis of the disease, what is the prescription in hope of a cure? Well Buddha being Buddha, he would not merely list the poisons of greed, hatred, and ignorance without telling us the antidote. To perhaps oversimplify... Greed is dissolved by generosity. Hatred by compassion. And ignorance disappears in the face of wisdom. But one must keep in mind the factors of time and scale. In other words, a serious disease takes time to heal even with the correct medicine and procedure. Without persistence, the antidotes will not be as effective as possible.