• Robert Levin
    4
    Although the guises may differ, people who study history are no less doomed to repeat it than those who don’t. The reason for this circumstance is not so mystifying once we are prepared to acknowledge that the apprehension of death, and the necessity to mitigate that apprehension, always has and always will prompt and shape virtually every human activity. If our responses to the prospect of death can, for sure, be benign and creative—can, for example, result in works of art that will survive our demise—they are, as often as not, malignant. And this is a grim reality that despite lessons from the past we are compelled to perpetuate.

    Let me try to explain.

    When F. Scott Fitzgerald remarked that ”In [the] dark night of the soul it is always three o’clock in the morning,” he was talking about the fundamental burden of human existence, of the terror that inhabits a life that is aware of its fate. To live with just a modicum of equanimity that terror has to be managed, and what we do to this end is we bury it. We repress it. But notwithstanding our success at repressing an all consuming death dread—even to the point of becoming apparently heedless of death’s inevitability—our trepidation never entirely disappears. Indeed, it remains subconsciously constant and dynamic and, however incognizant we may be of its processes and consequences, it is the determining force behind all manner of destructive behavior.

    Simply put, beings who know they will die cannot withstand extended periods of amity. Unable to confront the ultimate evil of death directly, it’s essential to have enemies, enemies that can be confronted. We need, that is, human surrogates for evil who are at the very least potentially vanquishable. Persons of races, cultures, religions, nationalities and sexual orientations different from ours serve this purpose well. Through our hostile engagement with these designated embodiments of evil, we simulate what constitute symbolic struggles with death, struggles that absorb and preoccupy us and that allow us, when we win, to experience the pleasure of securing what feels like a victory over death. Pleasure, as Epicurus noted, is the absence of pain, and pain is definable not merely as physical suffering but also as fear and anxiety. The eradication of manufactured adversaries affords us the sensation of killing our own death.

    Of course, since the basic problem still exists, our elation in these contrived instances is transitory. It wears off. We are forced then to make new enemies. (When we lose we may feel as good as dead, may enter a profound depression that will not lift until we identify fresh villains with whom to do combat. And while I’m in the aside of a parentheses, I don’t think it’s farfetched to suggest that what we really mean by the “social contract” is the unspoken agreement to supply one another with antagonists for the battle with mortality.)

    Born in 1939, only a couple of decades after the “war to end all wars,” I’ve been a witness to World War Two, the Holocaust, the dropping of the atom bomb, the Korean War, the Cuban Missile Crisis and Vietnam, not to mention 9/11, the invasion of Iraq, genocides, assassinations and countless mass murders. All of these travesties were intended to enable their perpetrators to deny their abominable destinies. The Donald Trump administration is among the most current of such travesties. Should I last a little longer I’m quite likely to attend the disintegration of democracy itself.

    In the prominent case of Trump, and following what I’ve attempted to describe, we can clearly see why he ascended to the presidency in 2016 and why (barring genuinely intolerable investigative revelations—I write this in late winter of 2019) he may yet win again in 2020.

    What Trump did was address our very deepest requirement, the necessity to mollify the anticipation of extinction. He accomplished this by providing scapegoats for our untenable predicament. Mexicans, Muslims and an "illegitimate" black president were responsible for the jeopardy in which we find ourselves. His posture in this respect was, I’d argue, more crucial to his election than his promises of jobs and economic security. Hillary Clinton, on the other hand, offered programs and policies that, devoid of monsters posing existential threats, were limited to the wholly rational. Contrary to how it may often appear, people do vote in their best interest. Hillary failed to recognize what, at bottom, we truly want.

    I don’t know what man made horrors await the planet in the coming years. I do know that they’ll be impervious to history, that they'll be abundant and that the unacceptability of death will be at their root.
  • T Clark
    13.9k
    To live with just a modicum of equanimity that terror has to be managed, and what we do to this end is we bury it. We repress it. But notwithstanding our success at repressing an all consuming death dread—even to the point of becoming apparently heedless of death’s inevitability—our trepidation never entirely disappears. Indeed, it remains subconsciously constant and dynamic and, however incognizant we may be of its processes and consequences, it is the determining force behind all manner of destructive behavior.Robert Levin

    Maybe this is true for you, but not for me and many others. I'm younger than you, 67, but I can see the end from here. I'm enjoying my life, I don't want to die, but I also don't want to live forever. I'm not looking forward to it, but I'm not afraid.

    You say "But notwithstanding our success at repressing an all consuming death dread—even to the point of becoming apparently heedless of death’s inevitability—our trepidation never entirely disappears."

    To translate - "When you say you're not afraid of death, you're wrong. You're afraid but you don't know it."

    Simply put, beings who know they will die cannot withstand extended periods of amity. Unable to confront the ultimate evil of death directly, it’s essential to have enemies, enemies that can be confronted. We need, that is, human surrogates for evil who are at the very least potentially vanquishable.Robert Levin

    I'll think about this, but I don't find it a very convincing explanation of humanity's tendency to violence.
  • BC
    13.6k
    Simply put, beings who know they will die cannot withstand extended periods of amity. Unable to confront the ultimate evil of death directly, it’s essential to have enemies, enemies that can be confronted. We need, that is, human surrogates for evil who are at the very least potentially vanquishable.Robert Levin

    I do not think 'death' and 'the fear of dying' accounts for our bouts of bellicose behavior. The only condition under which we could achieve universal peace is in a perfect and completely static world -- where no new desire or need or dissatisfaction could ever arise.

    Do people, most people, many people, any people... really think of 'death' as an evil? Death goes with the territory of being alive. Everything dies. Practically, everything must die to make room and resources available for new life. Our species alone has produced something like 100 billion individuals since we became a species. Imagine sharing a finite world with all of them!

    As Woody Allen put it, "I'm not afraid of dying; I just don't want to be there when it happens."

    At 72 I'm not afraid of being dead, or dying relatively quickly. I just don't want to have to go through a dying that is too slow.
  • RegularGuy
    2.6k
    I think “empty bellies” is the cause of the strifes of history, not a subconscious fear of death. “Empty bellies” being a placeholder for any given want or need.
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    We’re living in one of the most peaceful times in history. Things are pretty good over all.
  • OpinionsMatter
    85

    We certainly are! I think most of humanity has finally agreed that war and conflict is useless and harmful, not to mention a waste. A waste in what? Resources, time, lives... the list goes on. Somebody ask me how I know true, lasting peace will eventually come, because I happen to know.
  • RegularGuy
    2.6k
    Somebody ask me how I know true, lasting peace will eventually come, because I happen to know.OpnionsMatter

    LOL I’ll bite. How?
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    Well, it’s already here and has lasted long enough to call it “lasting” I’d say?
  • OpinionsMatter
    85

    Rather not, but that may not matter to you. This current peace is not lasting, neither is it globally peaceful. The peace I'm referring to is a global peace, where even the mere possibility of war would be impossible. If any one wishes to know more please personally message me, I refuse to disclose any more information publicly for the sake of you personal opinion and mine. Making my belief public opens me to be criticized, and as my username may suggest I strongly believe that all opinions matter, despite how logical or far fetched they may seem.
  • RegularGuy
    2.6k
    Well, it’s already here and has lasted long enough to call it “lasting” I’d say?I like sushi

    Not in all parts of the world, but, yes, it is relatively peaceful; the most peaceful it has ever been.
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    Making my belief public opens me to be criticized — Scared person
  • RegularGuy
    2.6k
    He or she is just a kid as s/he reported to me in a PM. Go easy.
  • OpinionsMatter
    85

    I am not scared, in fact I would do it if I thought it to be appropriate. This is a very open society, and the harsh reality is that not everyone agrees, and that's okay. If you feel I should go public than get at least two other people to agree with you, because other wise your own statement is the very form of criticism I'm talking about. Don't believe me? You assumed I was scared, which I am not. I was being respectful and you were rather rude. Don't worry, I forgive you. But please be more considerate to people in the future. Some 'World Peace'. You just fueled the fire for an argument(Conflict, A.K.A. Non-Peace) that isn't going to happen.
  • RegularGuy
    2.6k
    S/he’s very mature for his/her age.
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    Keep it to yourself then. No bother. I wasn’t being “rude” just honest.

    You come to a philosophy and make a huge claim yet don’t want to make your thoughts public? It is stupidity. I’m an open-minded person and I’m stating it as I see it.
  • I like sushi
    4.8k


    Kid or not, I treat everyone with the respect I deem they’re due. If someone wishes to develop their ideas they need to express them and have them challenged.

    Inevitably many will try to aggravate and disrupt, but if this person doesn’t learn to deal with that - maybe not now - they’ll lose out in the long run.
  • RegularGuy
    2.6k
    Kid or not, I treat everyone with the respect I deem they’re due.I like sushi

    We should be gentler with the young. I was just warning you to go easy.
  • OpinionsMatter
    85
    You come to a philosophy and make a huge claim yet don’t want to make your thoughts public? It is stupidity. I’m an open-minded person and I’m stating it as I see it.I like sushi
    Thank-you for being open minded, but perhaps not everyone would be willing to hear what I have to say. It is not stupidity, and you don't have to 'go easy' on me because I am young. You stated your opinion, I acknowledged it as something that could be true, and left it at that. What if you don't believe what I have to say? I may not want to hear what your reply is my self, or perhaps your comment would snub my own, because more people would agree with you. Either way, you obviously are some what curious, as you have made quite clear you're upset I haven't made it public. If you want to know, just ask. It's as simple as that. You don't have to, but just know it's that easy.
  • I like sushi
    4.8k


    Nope. I shouldn’t do what you think because you think it. Provide a good argument as to why I “should” be “gentler” and what exactly “gentler” means on a forum where arguments are the mainstay of the discourse?

    I judge as I see fit. If someone is young and bold enough to step in here then good for them. I doubt they came here with the intent of calling in their parents when things got to hard for them to handle.

    I respect the post enough to respond to it and point out what I deem as stupidity. I may well be wrong.
  • I like sushi
    4.8k


    Trust me I’m not here to gain popularity. I am almost certainly not going to believe everything uou believe. I am always willing to look for common ground especially with those I most strongly disagree with (that is what I find most challanging and fruitful).

    I have asked. Send me a personal message if you wish, but I’m just saying you’d probably get more from a baptism of fire ;)
  • RegularGuy
    2.6k
    I don’t have an argument in mind as to why we should be gentler with the youth, as I’ve never thought I needed to give one. I guess it’s because they don’t deserve ill treatment yet. They’re not yet responsible for the fucked up world.
  • ZhouBoTong
    837
    To @OpnionsMatter. Welcome to the wonderful world of philosophy. It basically consists of saying an idea, then allowing everyone to tell you how stupid your idea is (if they do not tell you WHY it is stupid then they deserve to be ignored). Then if you still think your idea holds water, you begin to address each point that has been laid out against you. Learn to enjoy the fight.

    A philosophy forum should be a safe place where anyone can call an idea stupid without fear of offending someone (in my magical dream world anyway).
  • Tzeentch
    3.8k
    We are never satisfied with what we have, and dread living with nothing more than what we need. Forever is the average mortal worried about not matching up to their peers, being surpassed by their neighbor or losing their standard of living. Apply the microcosm of the individual to the macrocosm of politics and one understands the reason there cannot be peace. At least, not until humanity is collectively prepared to address these issues.
  • Jake
    1.4k
    Excellent post, well done sir.

    I agree there are deep largely unseen currents in the human soul that manifest themselves on the surface in a manner that tends to obscure their source. And the evidence does suggest that there doesn't seem to be any philosophy, ideology or religion etc that we can layer on top of this phenomena to cure the ailment.

    I doubt this will help, but it's at least interesting to try to understand why we fear death. It won't surprise anyone that I'll claim that the source of this fear is the inherently divisive nature of the medium of thought that we are made of psychologically. Thought imposes the illusion of division on everything we observe, and we thus become one of the "things" that are observed. And a very small thing at that.

    Imho, this is why the fear of death (and all that flows from it) is never cured by any of the techniques we throw at the problem. This is why the fear of death and the illusion of division it arises from are universal in all cultural circumstances. The illusion of division is built in to the nature of what we're made of. This illusion is not just a bad idea which can be corrected by philosophy.

    On the upside, our perception of isolation and vulnerability is just an illusion. And life flies by at incredible speed. Help is on the way, I can almost hear the grim reaper ambulance coming to rescue us. :smile:
  • Jake
    1.4k
    Another point of personal fascination is that while we resist death on one level, we embrace it on a daily basis too. Death is woven in to the fabric of life and it is, again, the divisive nature of thought which attempts to separate life and death in to tidy separate conceptual categories.

    Consider that most popular of all pursuits, the orgasm. The essence of the orgasm is a fleeting moment of psychological death. Yes, everything leading up to and following the orgasm tends to be quite "me" oriented. But not the orgasm itself. During those few moments the "me" and the illusion of division is blasted out of existence. And we couldn't be happier about it.

    Imho, nature, God, or whoever, whatever provides this taste of death as a reward for us doing our job of trying to create new life.

    When viewed through the lens of thought life and death appear to be two different things, because thought imposes this pattern on everything it observes. But in reality, it seems to me that life and death are just two different words we've invented to described a single process.
  • leo
    882


    I agree to a point, we spend our lives fighting to live, fighting against death, it takes effort to survive and guarantee our survival as best we can. I suppose we could have peace in a utopian world where we all cared about each other and where we wouldn't reproduce too much so that there remains enough resources for everyone. But most of us are driven by an urge to have descendants, as a way to have a part of us that keeps on living after we die, and there is competition in finding a member of the opposite sex who agrees to have children with us. Men will fight to have the woman they want, they will compete with one another, and I don't see how that could ever change. They are fighting against death in a way, fighting against the death of their genes.

    And besides, we fight against other forms of life who too want to live, we kill them and eat them. What we may see as peace from our side might be a nightmare from their side.
  • OpinionsMatter
    85

    That was my point, @ZhouBoTong. But I believe this conversation has gotten rather old.
    My attention will be tuned else where.
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