Helping people is an apt example. Let us say that we believed helping people is the highest good we can do. To that end, everyone in the world decided to maximize as much time helping other people as possible. Life itself would be absurd for the individual. Helping people for simply the sake of helping people, in itself makes no sense as it NEGATES the very reason for helping people. The very reason for helping people is not so they can then help other people at all times, and those people help other people at all times, etc. but rather so that the people being helped can then enjoy their individual pursuits and goals (whatever that may be). Simply helping people is not the full story of the ethical value of helping people, rather it is helping people, so that they can pursue other stuff, otherwise it is an absurdity of simply helping, so others help, so others help, etc.

However, circling back to the completion idea, the other goals and desires and pursuits (other than helping people.. the individual ends and goals people have of all varieties) are also absurd. — schopenhauer1

Yes you understand. The drive to help people seems just like another survival tool we are equipped with, it doesn't necessarily help directly the one helping survive but it does benefit those who are being helped, who can then engage in activities that would help themselves or the tribe survive. If we had zero drive to help others, we wouldn't be helped and we wouldn't survive as well.

In the end everything seems about survival. Only to die in the end anyway, and that's the absurdity.

What do you think it means to ‘survive better’? — Possibility

By survive better I mean simply to have one's survival more guaranteed. For instance those who have to hunt for food every day and who can't cure their diseases have their survival less guaranteed than those who have plenty of food available and who have the tools to heal themselves.

To live is not only to survive, yet it seems that you equate the two, as if there were nothing else to the act of living except not dying. — Possibility

I didn't use to equate the two, but I've come to equate them when it seems that all the activities we do are driven by feelings which we have because they serve a survival purpose, or which served a survival purpose for our ancestors in making their survival more guaranteed than if they weren't there.

The human organism was never designed to survive on its own. It has instead evolved to make maximum utility of awareness/interaction/relationship with everything in the universe - including itself, its history and its future - as a fundamental requirement of its survival, let alone its ability to achieve anything beyond that. — Possibility

Yes, survival involves one's interaction with the environment, involves understanding the environment and making use of it, involves learning lessons from the past and attempting to predict the future, they're all activities that serve to increase the likelihood of one's survival. It is as if we spent our lives attempting to guarantee our survival as best we can, all to die in the end anyway.

We don't help people because we think it is going to help them survive, we help them because there is a feeling that pushes us to help them, but the sole role that this feeling serves is to help these people survive, which helps you survive when others are the ones helping you. What evidence is there that this feeling serves any other purpose?

What evidence is there that this feeling serves any other purpose? — leo

What kind of evidence are you looking for?

Yes you understand. The drive to help people seems just like another survival tool we are equipped with, it doesn't necessarily help directly the one helping survive but it does benefit those who are being helped, who can then engage in activities that would help themselves or the tribe survive. If we had zero drive to help others, we wouldn't be helped and we wouldn't survive as well.

In the end everything seems about survival. Only to die in the end anyway, and that's the absurdity. — leo

Well, yes and no. My main point there is that helping people is not the end in itself. Helping people so they can then pursue other goals outside of helping other people would make more sense. However, I broadened the idea a little and said even the other goals outside of helping other people are absurd as well. All human activities are absurd. It's built into our existence. The whole point of surviving, comfort-seeking, and entertainment-seeking that is.

Maybe a better word than absurd would be arbitrary. Your model of human motivation, relying on adaptive mechanisms underlying social intentions, presupposes an arbitrary origin of motives like empathy. Heidegger's approach ditches what I call the 'adaptive cobbling' account for a thinking of endless transformation of meaning. Rather than absurd or arbitrary, life is uncanny, anxious.

"Man is that inability to remain and is yet unable to leave his place. In projecting, the Da-sein in him constantly throws him into possibilities and thereby keeps him subjected to what is actual. Thus thrown in this throw, man is a transition, transition as the fundamental essence of occurrence. Man is
history, or better, history is man. Man is enraptured in this transition and therefore essentially 'absent'. Absent in a fundamental sense-never simply at hand, but absent in his essence, in his essentially being away, removed into essential having been and future-essentially absencing and never at hand, yet existent in his essential absence. Transposed into the possible, he must constantly
be mistaken concerning what is actual. And only because he is thus mistaken and transposed can he become seized by terror. And only where there is the perilousness of being seized by terror do we find the bliss of astonishment- being torn away in that wakeful manner that is the breath of all philosophizing."

Well, yes and no. My main point there is that helping people is not the end in itself. Helping people so they can then pursue other goals outside of helping other people would make more sense. However, I broadened the idea a little and said even the other goals outside of helping other people are absurd as well. All human activities are absurd. It's built into our existence. The whole point of surviving, comfort-seeking, and entertainment-seeking that is. — schopenhauer1

Yes, but what makes the other goals absurd? Behind every goal there is a feeling, a desire at the source that gives rise to the goal in the first place, the desire gives the meaning to the act. Helping people or looking for more comfort in itself is not absurd, it is only when these activities are put in relation with the fact that all they serve is to increase our chances of survival, and with the fact that the end result of all of this is to not survive anyway, that the whole of existence becomes absurd, as it is all one big effort to guarantee our survival and yet die in the end anyway.

What kind of evidence are you looking for? — Possibility

Evidence that we are not just biological machines driven by feelings that have been selected through evolution as a survival aid, evidence that there is a point in spending great efforts in understanding the world other than it being an instance of us being survival machines that attempt to understand so we can predict better and increase our chances of survival, evidence that there is a point in exploring the universe other than it being another instance of us being survival machines attempting to spread as much as we can like an invasive species, evidence that helping others feels good not just because evolution selected it as a trait that made our species survive, evidence that love isn't just another meaningless drive whose only purpose is to make us reproduce and preserve one another, evidence that there is more to existence than just it being one big survival game until we die, that we aren't just puppets controlled by our feelings whose only purpose is to keep us alive until we die.

Evidence that we are not just biological machines driven by feelings that have been selected through evolution as a survival aid, evidence that there is a point in spending great efforts in understanding the world other than it being an instance of us being survival machines that attempt to understand so we can predict better and increase our chances of survival, evidence that there is a point in exploring the universe other than it being another instance of us being survival machines attempting to spread as much as we can like an invasive species, evidence that helping others feels good not just because evolution selected it as a trait that made our species survive, evidence that love isn't just another meaningless drive whose only purpose is to make us reproduce and preserve one another, evidence that there is more to existence than just it being one big survival game until we die, that we aren't just puppets controlled by our feelings whose only purpose is to keep us alive until we die. — leo

Wow, I enjoyed that. It's raw and gets right to the point. FWIW, I don't know of any great evidence like that, but I do think that the situation which you describe, even if it's ours, still allows for a more user-friendly interpretation.

If it's true, then what does it mean that we are bothered by it? Wouldn't our desire for something beyond all of that ultimately be some masked version of the same 'will-to-survive' that it finds so offensive as a foundation? Humans do seem to live on the edge in a way that others animals don't. Do elephants contemplate their own mortality and/or absurdity? I know they react to the death of other elephants in ways that humans find impressive.

Anyway, some traditions deny the quoted perspective and others accept something like it and concentrate on doing the little stuff well. I'd like to say that I chose the second, but 'choice' is a strong word. I can't sincerely deny the truth-in-some-sense of what you want evidence against and therefore adapt by trying to get the details right (or righter.)

Absurdity is exactly what you’re talking about. People seem to be afraid to even mention the word these days, as if it might lead to some sort of mass suicide. From my experience the older you get the more absurd life looks.

However, contrary to modern fears of who we are, absurdity doesn’t make life meaningless. As a life form, like all life, we fight vigorously against death, never giving in until the end. So despite the knowledge of absurdity we want to stay here, and we have to live that life day by day.

The idea of absurdity actually helps you focus on what’s really important, it strips away the nonsense. If you begin researching the idea of absurdity you’ll find a very long list of interesting people: novelists, playwrights, philosophers, artists, poets, that produce work as a result of their exploration of absurdity.

If it's true, then what does it mean that we are bothered by it? Wouldn't our desire for something beyond all of that ultimately be some masked version of the same 'will-to-survive' that it finds so offensive as a foundation? — old

I think one of the traits we have in our survival toolset is not wanting to pursue pointless endeavors, yet once we find life as a whole to be ultimately pointless we enter a deep conflict between our will to survive and our will not to pursue life, and that's what bothers us and that we see as absurd.

I don't know what it is we are looking for beyond all that, maybe it is just another survival tool, that keeps us living and wondering and reproducing, then hoping that our children might find the answers, themselves then hoping that their children will find the answers, and so on endlessly.

In the unknown anything is possible, so we think maybe there is something we cannot comprehend yet that lies in the unknown and that we have yet to discover, that would somehow give meaning to all that. I don't know what I am looking for beyond, I think really it is just the hope that there is something there that would save me. Which as you say could still be interpreted as another instance of me trying to survive, but the hope is that what I would find, how it would make me feel, would make me not care.

The people who believe in an afterlife are not faced with the absurdity, since they see their life as a step towards something greater. I want to believe there is something more after death, but I can't get myself to believe it without seeing any sign here in my life. And me reacting that way is probably yet another trait in my survival toolset, not to believe in something without seeing evidence first.

Life is very much different depending on what we believe. I think I could ponder these questions forever and still be as lost in the end. I am really lost, and afraid about a lot of things. I want to live, but I live in fear. When we feel good we don't look for meaning, we've already found it. It is when we stop feeling that absurdity appears and meaning is nowhere to be found.

A few times in my life I have felt connected with something beyond. Once the feeling passes it remains as a distant memory, it seems like it was a delusion, but on the moment it is as real as anything else we deem to be real, yet it cannot be communicated in a way others can comprehend since it is so different from what we are used to experience. Some will interpret it as a psychotic episode, others as a true connection to the beyond. But we can never really be sure. Maybe the only way to access it is to somehow let go of our fears and certainties. Or maybe it is yet another survival tool that shows up to save us as a last resort. I want to know for sure, but maybe that's what prevents me from feeling it again.

Maybe a better word than absurd would be arbitrary. Your model of human motivation, relying on adaptive mechanisms underlying social intentions, presupposes an arbitrary origin of motives like empathy. Heidegger's approach ditches what I call the 'adaptive cobbling' account for a thinking of endless transformation of meaning. Rather than absurd or arbitrary, life is uncanny, anxious. — Joshs

It is the obligations of living that I find interestingly tragic. The obligations being any choice or decision to do anything. As Schopenhauer said- there is no "being", just "becoming", and I think that was echoed a bit in your Heidegger quote. We have to make choices at almost all waking moments. The trouble with being born, dealing with our own becoming- seeking comfort, seeking entertainment, seeking survival.

Yes, but what makes the other goals absurd? Behind every goal there is a feeling, a desire at the source that gives rise to the goal in the first place, the desire gives the meaning to the act. Helping people or looking for more comfort in itself is not absurd, it is only when these activities are put in relation with the fact that all they serve is to increase our chances of survival, and with the fact that the end result of all of this is to not survive anyway, that the whole of existence becomes absurd, as it is all one big effort to guarantee our survival and yet die in the end anyway. — leo

They are absurd in that we cannot escape our own need for need, and when seen as a whole, it is instrumental for more instrumentality. It is like seeing someone with wild gesticulations in a phone booth, without hearing what they are saying (pace Camus). The repetition of our actions, day in and day out, even the fact of the repetition of the planets rotation and orbit is absurdly repetitive. Survival is indeed repetitive, but so is the other main drives- comfort and entertainment. Here is an oldy but goody I wrote a while back about the neologism I made up called instrumentality:

Here is the idea of instrumentality- the absurd feeling that can be experienced from apprehension of the constant need to put forth energy to pursue goals and actions in waking life. This feeling can make us question the whole human enterprise itself of maintaining mundane repetitive upkeep, maintaining institutions, and pursuing any action that eats up free time simply for the sake of being alive and having no other choice. There is also a feeling of futility as, the linguistic- general processor brain cannot get out of its own circular loop of awareness of this. Another part of the feeling of futility is the idea that there is no ultimate completion from any goal or action. It is that idea that there is nothing truly fulfilling. Time moves forward and we must make more goals and actions.

Evidence that we are not just biological machines driven by feelings that have been selected through evolution as a survival aid, evidence that there is a point in spending great efforts in understanding the world other than it being an instance of us being survival machines that attempt to understand so we can predict better and increase our chances of survival, evidence that there is a point in exploring the universe other than it being another instance of us being survival machines attempting to spread as much as we can like an invasive species, evidence that helping others feels good not just because evolution selected it as a trait that made our species survive, evidence that love isn't just another meaningless drive whose only purpose is to make us reproduce and preserve one another, evidence that there is more to existence than just it being one big survival game until we die, that we aren't just puppets controlled by our feelings whose only purpose is to keep us alive until we die. — leo

Its not all desire for survival- it is also desire to seek more comfortable and entertaining states. Survival, comfort, and boredom are the three great motivators in my book.

The absurdity of fixing the toolshed. Put the tools in the shed, work on the yard. The next day rolls around, and sip a mixed beverage on your porch, and read. Next day travel to workplace, do similar tasks, travel home. Next day repeat. Next day repeat. Every day brings with it a new way for our will to be applied, creating the absurd repetitive nature of daily life. Slightly different variations on the same theme over and over and over. It's got to be the vacation that brings the break in the monotony says the crowd. It's not the vacation. Life has always been repetitively instrumental for its own instrumentality. We developed language, concepts, and culture but it is the same rotating earth.

I think one of the traits we have in our survival toolset is not wanting to pursue pointless endeavors, yet once we find life as a whole to be ultimately pointless we enter a deep conflict between our will to survive and our will not to pursue life, and that's what bothers us and that we see as absurd. — leo

I think you nailed it. And I thought your post was great from start to finish.

I want to believe there is something more after death, but I can't get myself to believe it without seeing any sign here in my life. And me reacting that way is probably yet another trait in my survival toolset, not to believe in something without seeing evidence first. — leo

That makes sense to me. I also speculate that maybe part of us likes the 'dark' view. As much as it freaks us out and can even drive us to suicide, there's something thrilling about it, like sailing into the storm in a tiny boat alone. At the same time this sailing lonely into the storm that will drown us is universal. I am one more human being coming to terms with absurdity. It provides some comfort some of the time. By giving up on 'infinite' solutions, I can turn my attention to 'finite' solutions. I can play the game of the world well despite knowing that it's ultimately rigged or absurd. This is only a 'finite' comfort, and it's not guaranteed to save anyone. Indeed, no one is saved for long. How's the ride to the void? Did I die in my crib from SIDS? At 16 from drunk driving? At 27 from suicide? At 56 from heart disease? At 88 from prostate cancer? Was it pleasant or unpleasant? Both of course. Mostly one of the other? Perhaps. Did it 'mean anything' if I lived to 88 and dodged SIDS? Well, it meant something to some people for a little while. But that seems to be about the sum of it. Am I glad to have been hurled into the this game? At the moment yes. Occasionally no.

Life is very much different depending on what we believe. I think I could ponder these questions forever and still be as lost in the end. I am really lost, and afraid about a lot of things. I want to live, but I live in fear. When we feel good we don't look for meaning, we've already found it. It is when we stop feeling that absurdity appears and meaning is nowhere to be found. — leo

Ain't that the truth! And I am also full of fear at times. We are sensitive little animals caught in a vast machine. Naturally those absorbed in something fun aren't in the mood to hear it, and they are right! Chances are that they already know and are enjoying being able to forget. The basic 'finite' 'cure' seems to be just getting engrossed in something. Rack up love, prestige, money, etc. These are finite games that make sense to us, the kind we seem to be 'designed' for.

I don't know what it is we are looking for beyond all that, maybe it is just another survival tool, that keeps us living and wondering and reproducing, — leo

I relate here too. It's not clear what we itch for, though the itch is common enough. As others have written, immortality doesn't necessarily solve the problem. We might just itch forever for something beyond eating, love-making, sleeping, our various projects, etc. The itch probably does help us survive by keeping us restless, so that we move from project to project, expanding our skill set and keeping our brain warmed up for the thousand 'finite' tasks that make sense to us.

Evidence that we are not just biological machines driven by feelings that have been selected through evolution as a survival aid, evidence that there is a point in spending great efforts in understanding the world other than it being an instance of us being survival machines that attempt to understand so we can predict better and increase our chances of survival, evidence that there is a point in exploring the universe other than it being another instance of us being survival machines attempting to spread as much as we can like an invasive species, evidence that helping others feels good not just because evolution selected it as a trait that made our species survive, evidence that love isn't just another meaningless drive whose only purpose is to make us reproduce and preserve one another, evidence that there is more to existence than just it being one big survival game until we die, that we aren't just puppets controlled by our feelings whose only purpose is to keep us alive until we die. — leo

I was trying to find out if you were specifically after objective, scientific evidence, or if relating to another person’s interpretation of subjective experience would suffice. It appeared as if you were looking for physical evidence of something beyond the physical, which seems a pointless exercise from my point of view.

Having said that, I can relate to your questioning. For myself, I choose to not believe that we are just survival machines, controlled by our feelings or instincts, who twist everything we do towards our individual survival. I recognise that scientific evidence leads us to that conclusion, but so much of what I experience suggests that we are more than that. And the more I understand about how others experience the world, the more sure I have become that metaphysics is worth exploring. That doesn’t mean I believe in immortality, heaven or hell, incarnation, etc., but I do think we have a tendency to throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to subjective experiences that cannot be verified with language, logic or evidence.

A few times in my life I have felt connected with something beyond. Once the feeling passes it remains as a distant memory, it seems like it was a delusion, but on the moment it is as real as anything else we deem to be real, yet it cannot be communicated in a way others can comprehend since it is so different from what we are used to experience. Some will interpret it as a psychotic episode, others as a true connection to the beyond. But we can never really be sure. Maybe the only way to access it is to somehow let go of our fears and certainties. Or maybe it is yet another survival tool that shows up to save us as a last resort. I want to know for sure, but maybe that's what prevents me from feeling it again. — leo

I have increasingly felt connected with something beyond, and also recognised the lack of evidence available to back it up. In a world where the notion of subjective experience is being reduced to what can be digitally validated, it’s difficult to recognise these transient elements of experience as anything other than delusion. But I have also noticed that there is increasingly less certainty in how we experience the world generally. We can never really be sure of anything, when you think about. I would agree it is time to let go of our certainties, but I also think that fear is something we’re just going to have to live with, whether we like it or not. That’s the hardest part, I think. We’ve convinced ourselves that fear is something we should be avoiding - it’s unhealthy, hindering our ability to think straight or to function logically. But if we’re going to let go of our certainties, then I think we need to learn to live with fear, not in it.

Life is very much different depending on what we believe. I think I could ponder these questions forever and still be as lost in the end. I am really lost, and afraid about a lot of things. I want to live, but I live in fear. When we feel good we don't look for meaning, we've already found it. It is when we stop feeling that absurdity appears and meaning is nowhere to be found. — leo

It feels good to have an objective view of the world when it’s working to our benefit. The world appears, at least, to have meaning. But when life appears to be working against us, we start to recognise this view for the absurd construct it is.

As long as I am living, I will never be completely safe, nor completely secure, nor completely invincible; I will also never be completely autonomous, nor completely independent, nor completely adored. As long as I am living, I am fragile, temporary, dependent and imperfect, no matter what I do or how I do it. That’s life - and it only seems absurd to be afraid of it because we believe our ultimate aim is to survive...everything.

However, I believe our ultimate aim is not to survive, but to develop/achieve/succeed - in a frustratingly non-specific way. It is our unique capacity as human beings to evaluate and prioritise our experiences that leads us to the conclusion that survival is our top priority.