Unconditional love.

Shawn

I've been taking a more feminist outlook on society, and there's nothing out in society that compares to the love a mother grants to her herd or sheeple.

Nowhere can you find the unconditional love a mother grants a (particularly) a son or daughter.

I'm almost a 30 year old man living with his mother, and I wake up every morning feeling like a kid with his mother. Usually, by my age siblings leave the nest and are on their own; but, I'm grown more appreciative and loving towards my mother. It seems like I will never leave her.

But, what do you call this? Maturity? Disability? Love? Dependency disorder?

My father frowns on the whole situation. He thinks I have passed the age of leaving the nest and will always stay with my mom.

But, you know what? Fuck him. He abandoned his fiduciary duty when I was 15, when we moved to another country. So, he can go have a fig or something.

But, now I realize that I never want to leave my mothers side. It's as if I fully realize why she cares for me so much. It's because her love is unconditional. No strings attached.

Having read a little of feminist philosophy, this would be called "care". And, you know what? There ain't fuckin enough of that in this world.

People are needy and will eat up all the care in this world; so, it's a limited resource, and now I understand why I don't care about my neighbor's son as if he were my own. Because care is a limited resource and it doesn't self-generate.

And, this is where I understand the relationship between compassion and care. Compassion must be cultivated to sustain care; but, to be honest, it's a tiring process. You have to shut out the negativity of the world, and view it in a positive light to cultivate compassion.

So, what I'm getting at is that the mantra of life of a Buddhist is almost in some ways similar to the unconditional love a mother endows unto her son or daughter. They are very similar almost identical.

Thoughts?

BrianW

There's nothing wrong with living with one's parents. Infact, I consider a family-focused home affair (like back in the day or as is the case with some semitic or hindu cultures) to be better than what modern-western ideals are trying to sell. I prefer when my kids are taken care of by their grandparents (who are always around - helpful but not meddling like in movies) instead of hiring strangers to take care of them. I don't know when strangers stopped being strange but I think family loves best.

bert1

This is hard to comment on without knowing the characters involved. I'd be interested in reading more about how you apply feminist philosophy to this situation.

It seems to me that 'love' is about supporting someone to develop and grow. Is your mum facilitating such development?

T Clark

I've been taking a more feminist outlook on society, and there's nothing out in society that compares to the love a mother grants to her herd or sheeple.

Nowhere can you find the unconditional love a mother grants a (particularly) a son or daughter. — Wallows

I don't care that you are 30 and live with your mother. My youngest child, 29, lives at home with my wife and me and we're happy to have him here.

But - to call that feminism is a long, insulting stretch.

Also, men can't be feminists, he said provocatively.

Shawn

↪BrianW

I almost feel militant and hostile towards the Western conception of what the family/atomic unit ought to look like. Yes, it exists in the back of my mind that I ought to be more independent and a self-sufficient individual by my age and various people would go to the extreme and say that I have a dependency disorder (say's *fuck you* under his nose.)

But, none of that matters because of the unconditional love my mother grants me.

Shawn

This is hard to comment on without knowing the characters involved. I'd be interested in reading more about how you apply feminist philosophy to this situation — bert1

Nel Noddings, believes in what is called ethics of care. In my limited understanding of this philosophy, Carol Gilligan's duty of care is supplanted with an ethics of care not motivated out of duty; but, love. I might have got some of that mixed up, it's been a while since I read Gilligan.

Anyone, please correct me on this.

It seems to me that 'love' is about supporting someone to develop and grow. Is your mum facilitating such development? — bert1

Surely she is. But, how can one ever asses that? And, this is where I say that supporting someone can be done by a significant other; but, doesn't attain the level or degree of care and support one receives from one's mother in the form of unconditional love.

You might note that I have a distorted vision of what constitutes real from illusory love; but, I feel confident that what I have said is all motivated out of preserving the care and love my mother presents to me, and wish that our situation doesn't change (and here you can say I have developed a dependency disorder); but, so what, I respond!

Shawn

I don't care that you are 30 and live with your mother. My youngest child, 29, lives at home with my wife and me and we're happy to have him here. — T Clark

More power to you T Clark. There's a strange concept that stinks of male chauvinism when someone says *at your age you should...*, to which I respond with no commentary. A free country I suppose one can say; but, I'm going a little deeper here.

But - to call that feminism is a long, insulting stretch.

Also, men can't be feminists, he said provocatively. — T Clark

Well, you're free to criticize me for saying this; but, mothers are better at maintaining and keeping the family together rather than men. As long as the family unit isn't strictly patriarchal.

BC

Thoughts? — Wallows

You will live your life as you see fit, of course, and you are entitled to do that.

At least in southern Italian families just a few generations back it was not unusual for one son to remain at home with his mother, for her benefit (assuming the father had died).

My guess is that over the eons, many families have remained together into the adulthood of their children and even grandchildren. The famous "extended family". So, historically there is nothing particularly unusual about you remaining at home with your mother.

On the other hand, we don't live in a traditional culture. American or European culture seems to support the notion that children should leave home, at some point, and make their own way in the world. There is nothing inordinately superior about this plan over a traditional plan, but it's the one that we (mostly) live with.

If there is a fly in your ointment it would be this: is the unconditional love your mother gives to you preparing you to give it to others? Unconditional love (as I understand it, anyway) takes practice. We have to build our capacity to give unconditional love, through experiences that may sometimes be painful.

The crude analogy would be the capacity to run a marathon. Usually we have to work up to running for 26 miles; we have to work fairly hard if we plan on finishing close to the front. It will be unpleasant at times; sometimes quite unpleasant.

Unconditional love and feminism seem like an unfortunate combination of ingredients for a good cocktail. Unconditional love and Christ go well together, and fear and loathing of the nuclear family is a good base for a feminist intoxicant.

Shawn

American or European culture seems to support the notion that children should leave home, at some point, and make their own way in the world. There is nothing inordinately superior about this plan over a traditional plan, but it's the one that we (mostly) live with. — Bitter Crank

I'd like to phrase this issue from the POV of a female.

Is a male desireable or evolutionarily "fit" if he is to live with his mother after the age of adolescence? If not, then what is he treated as?

Brett

is the unconditional love your mother gives to you preparing you to give it to others? — Bitter Crank

That’s an interesting point. Is life only about receiving love? Is Wallow’s mother’s love going to die with him?

BC

Is a male desireable or evolutionarily "fit" if he is to live with his mother after the age of adolescence? If not, then what is he treated as? — Wallows

I don't know. Is he? Yes? No? Maybe?

What should you do to prove your evolutionary fitness? Beat up every other guy in the neighborhood and become King of the Hill? Go hunting and kill a nice big buck, butcher it in the woods, and bring it home tied to the hood of your car? Go find a woman and drag her to your bed by her hair? Win a blue ribbon at the state fair for the biggest pumpkin? Hold up a gas station?

I'm just not sure the question of evolutionary fitness helps clarify anything here.

BC

↪Wallows

Thud.

Shawn

I'm just not sure the question of evolutionary fitness helps clarify anything here. — Bitter Crank

I'm actually going to open my old university schoolbook on game theory to answer this.

But, to a female it should be straightforward.

Hold on...

Possibility

I'd like to phrase this issue from the POV of a female.

Is a male desireable or evolutionarily "fit" if he is to live with his mother after the age of adolescence? If not, then what is he treated as? — Wallows

Ok. I’d like to respond to this from the genuine POV of a female and a mother.

This has absolutely nothing to do with desireability or evolutionary fitness. Is that straightforward enough for you?

If my son was still living with me at 30, it would NOT be because he doesn’t want to give up the ‘unconditional love’ that he receives from me.

I wonder what you mean by ‘unconditional love’ - because from my POV, the love I have for my children is not conditional on them living with me or being by my side. It is not conditional on them needing me to take care of them, either. I think there are many mothers who claim ‘unconditional love’ for their children, but who simply don’t want to give up feeling needed by them.

I also wonder if you love your mother unconditionally in return? How do you show your love for her, and would you continue to do so if she no longer took care of you the way that she does now? Would you take care of her in return if she needed it?

The concept of unconditional love is regularly abused by mothers and their children to mask co-dependency. I love my children unconditionally by supporting them to develop and grow well past the point where they no longer need me. As painful as that is for me to gradually but surely let go, I know that I am not so narrowly defined by my role as his mother, just as he has the potential to be so much more than just my son.

I suggest you leave feminism out of this, by the way. Your POV is so far from feminism it isn’t even funny.

Brett

↪Possibility

:up:

Shawn

↪Possibility

Thanks for explaining that. You raised some questions, such as

I also wonder if you love your mother unconditionally in return? How do you show your love for her, and would you continue to do so if she no longer took care of you the way that she does now? Would you take care of her in return if she needed it? — Possibility

All yes.

I love my mother for the fact that she loves me. The fact that it is unconditional love is even all the more welcoming.

The concept of unconditional love is regularly abused by mothers and their children to mask co-dependency. I love my children unconditionally by supporting them to develop and grow well past the point where they no longer need me. As painful as that is for me to gradually but surely let go, I know that I am not so narrowly defined by my role as his mother, just as he has the potential to be so much more than just my son.

I suggest you leave feminism out of this, by the way. Your POV is so far from feminism it isn’t even funny. — Possibility

Fair enough, I'm not that great with feminist ideology myself to claim that I know everything about it.

Artemis

↪Wallows

Echoing some other posters here:
The arrangement you and your mother have is only seen as unconventional in some times and places, like late 20th and early 21st century USA. But throughout history and across cultures the multi-generational household is not only normal, it's necessary. I think in the US we are seeing a return to such norms. This is due to many factors, such as nursing homes are extraordinarily expensive and also few people actually want to live there. Also, childcare is amazingly expensive and don't provide the same level of nurture and familial bonding as grandparents babysitting. Not to mention, homes are becoming more expensive to buy.

Basically, if your arrangement does not infringe, and actually enables both of you to live the rest of your lives as you desire (get married, have kids, work, have a social life, pursue hobbies, etc.) and you are dedicated to caring for her in return WHEN not IF she becomes old and will need to rely on you, then everything is as it should be.

Also, unconditional love is not the same as doing everything for someone unconditionally. A parent may love a child unconditionally, but may not have the same relationship with that child depending on circumstances. If the child becomes a murderer, a drug addict, or just a horrible and mean person, the parent may still love the child just as much, but will not be able to have the same relationship with that child.

Finally, though you have been burned, unconditional love toward a child can come (or not come) from a parent of either sex. I've seen both sexes be absolutely devoted parents or totally neglectful and abusive. Though it is true that our society generally encourages nurturing behavior more in women.

Shawn

Finally, though you have been burned, unconditional love toward a child can come (or not come) from a parent of either sex. I've seen both sexes be absolutely devoted parents or totally neglectful and abusive. Though it is true that our society generally encourages nurturing behavior more in women. — NKBJ

Well, I just think of the fact that prison populations are predominantly male, and this gives me the impression that females are less aggressive, domineering, and violent than men are.

People get mad when I bring this up; but, it seems to be true.

Artemis

Well, I just think of the fact that prison populations are predominantly male, and this gives me the impression that females are less aggressive, domineering, and violent than men are. — Wallows

That's true. It's almost impossible to tell, however, how much of that is inherent sex differences and how much social/environmental influences.

Hanover

Nowhere can you find the unconditional love a mother grants a (particularly) a son or daughter. — Wallows

Yeah, well, I'm sort of attached to my kids as well, so I'm not sure it's a feminist thing in actuality, but more of a feminist thing stereotypically.

I'm almost a 30 year old man living with his mother, and I wake up every morning feeling like a kid with his mother. — Wallows

The question isn't whether you should bow to societal norms for the sake of meeting expectations, but it's whether your current situation is confining or leading to greater happiness. I can tell you that my feelings of self-worth and happiness rest heavily upon my accomplishments, which to a large degree are the result of my being autonomous and fully living my own life.

I realize you're not me though. You have shared considerably on this board and have let us know of your emotional struggles, and I can't say if it makes more sense to have a strong emotional anchor like your mother in place or whether you'd fare better having at it on your own. The question you have to ask yourself is whether your current attempt to justify your living arrangement is due to laziness or fear or whether you're honestly working to self-acceptance of it because it is in fact the best course.

Since it is the case that there are some people who actually do best in a fully confined institutionalized setting, it stands to reason there will be others who will do best in arrangements others would not find ideal. Since my personal experience is that autonomy is so interrelated to happiness, my instinct is to suggest that you find as much avenue toward personal expression as possible. Then again, I really don't know if you're so constructed.

The other part of this equation is, of course, your mother, and whether she is entirely a positive force in your life or whether she is simply creating for you an overly comfortable situation that fails to adequately challenge you to greater success. That I don't know, but I do think all of this worth exploring (to the extent you haven't already) because your long term living situation and apparent limited personal goals are atypical.

Hanover

Well, I just think of the fact that prison populations are predominantly male, and this gives me the impression that females are less aggressive, domineering, and violent than men are. — Wallows

It could be you've looked at the prisons and seen that most of the bad actors are male, or it could be:

My father frowns on the whole situation. He thinks I have passed the age of leaving the nest and will always stay with my mom.

But, you know what? Fuck him. He abandoned his fiduciary duty when I was 15, when we moved to another country. So, he can go have a fig or something. — Wallows

I'm just saying I looked at the same prisons you have, but my views on fathers are not quite the same as yours....

Hanover

↪Possibility

All that you say is true, but to give you some perspective on this, Wallows, as I understand it, is fully disabled due to emotional issues. That being the case, who knows what is best? If my son were telling me that he just loved hanging out with dear old dad, so he has decided to forego college, finding friends, looking for love, or getting a job so that we could spend time bonding, he'd get ejected pretty quick. On the other hand, if it just made sense at the moment due to finances or whatever and he was doing all he could to achieve, and especially if he had some special needs, I'd probably give him special consideration.

I know Wallows didn't say all of this, but instead tried to justify his living condition as just being an alternative way to live life and not be bound by contemporary norms. Then there was the whole discussion about how his life was really just a unique and pure expression of mother/child love that honored feminism and that ought not be interfered with. For the vast majority of the population, I think what he says is pretty lame and borders on the absurd, but for someone in his shoes, maybe not.

And yes, Wallows, I know you're in the room, yet I talk about you like you're not. Having folks talk about you is your favorite topic though.

Artemis

Yeah, well, I'm sort of attached to my kids as well, so I'm not sure it's a feminist thing in actuality, but more of a feminist thing stereotypically. — Hanover

Feminism is not just about females :)

Shawn

And yes, Wallows, I know you're in the room, yet I talk about you like you're not. Having folks talk about you is your favorite topic though. — Hanover

Wrong again, this topic is about my mother, who loves me unconditionally. Though, yet again you try and tell me it's all about me. How tiring.

Hanover

Wrong again, this topic is about my mother, who loves me unconditionally. Though, yet again you try and tell me it's all about me. How tiring. — Wallows

It's not tiring for you at all. You delight in this conversation about you, which is now paradoxically about you to the extent we can talk about it being not about you.

Shawn

It's not tiring for you at all. You delight in this conversation about you, which is now paradoxically about you to the extent we can talk about it being not about you. — Hanover

I have only expressed my unconditional love for my mother, and her's to me. Insofar then if it's about our happy relationship, and my disability, then fine, it can be about me.

Hanover

I have only expressed my unconditional love for my mother, and her's to me. Insofar then if it's about our happy relationship, and my disability, then fine, it can be about me. — Wallows

It's great your mother loves you and you love her back. You ought go up and ring her neck with a big ole hug and tell her, "Mama, I 'preciate the shit out of ya!"

Shawn

It's great your mother loves you and you love her back. You ought go up and ring her neck with a big ole hug and tell her, "Mama, I 'preciate the shit out of ya!" — Hanover

I do that every day, friend.

See, this thread isn't only about me then, don't you agree?

Hanover

See, this thread isn't only about me then, don't you agree? — Wallows

We should start a sub-thread and ask whether the thread isn't about you.

Heracloitus

I agree with

↪Possibility

I have 2 children and would feel like I had failed in my role as a parent - to enable them to live independently and start their own families, go confidently towards their own adventures and mistakes - if they still lived with me at the ripe old age of 30.

BTW I am not judging you wallows, but giving my honest reaction to the situation you describe.

Shawn

BTW I am not judging you wallows, but giving my honest reaction to the situation you describe. — emancipate

:blush:

It's hard to say anything thinking of the whole thing in the third person. We've been through hell. I wasn't always like this BTW. There was a time when I wanted to move out to Germany or some Scandinavian country, which I brought up on these forums numerous times asking how do I get an education in Germany and such.

Strangely, the phase of moving around and doing things has ended sooner for me than what would be normal or typical for a male. I see my friends traveling to exotic lands on Facebook all the time; but, I guess I'm just getting older, almost like accelerated aging. I guess suffering and struggle make a person want less or desire less rather than more from the world.

And, sure @Hanover, you've been following my threads or life, and have been an impartial witness throughout the whole venture; but, you may have noticed that I've also quieted down considerably. I don't know if this is a sign of maturity; but, I just want to have an easy and happy life with my mom.

Unconditional love.

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