I prayed that my dog would be cured from a form of incurable canine cancer, and he was. — OpinionsMatter
↪Frank Apisa
I think a logical argument can be made for a similar but distinct question 'Is there a creator of the universe?'. — Devans99
For example, the fine-tuning argument: The universe is fine-tuned for life; there must be a fine tuner. But who fine-tuned the fine-tuner's environment for life? There must be another fine-tuner. This infinite regress terminates with a timeless fine-tuner (IE timeless so beyond cause and effect so does not in itself need creating). — Devans
As to the question of 'Is there a God?'; if the definition of God includes the 3O's then framing a logical argument is more difficult. People sometimes say that the laws of nature possess some or all of the 3O's and then associate the laws of nature with God... — Devans
But what we humans call "the universe" may actually have had a "creator"...and that creator may not be a god — Frank Apisa
In some much larger reality...what we humans call "the universe" may be a molecule in an experiment being performed by a kid using a chemistry set. — Frank Apisa
You seem determined to suppose "the universe" is fine tuned.
It may not be — Frank Apisa
Yes. I think we can conclude if there was a creator, then he would have the following characteristics:
- Timeless
- Powerful
- Benevolent — Devans99
But there is a gulf between the above and the traditional religious view of God. Thinking of God as the creator of the natural laws partially bridges the gap in terms of omnipresence and omnipotence. It does not cover omniscience or omnibenevolence. I'm not sure that the traditional religious view of God is amenable to being tackled with a logical proof. The very idea of omnipotence/omniscience/omnibenevolence seems to fly in the face of logical thinking, — Devans
In some much larger reality...what we humans call "the universe" may be a molecule in an experiment being performed by a kid using a chemistry set. — Frank Apisa
It is an interesting point. When discussing the universe, it is sometimes helpful to use the term 'base reality' to refer to the entirety of everything. Then we can look at creation arguments and say whether they apply to our reality or 'base reality' or both.
Arguments that relate to our universe and our time generally recast as arguments relating to base reality and base reality time with no problem I find. — Devans
You seem determined to suppose "the universe" is fine tuned.
It may not be — Frank Apisa
It's a hotly debated subject. Personally I think both the weak and strong Anthropic principle arguments can be countered. My conclusion is the universe is probably fine-tuned for life. — Devans
We ALL may be creating new universes every minute of every day. — Frank Apisa
A "creator" does not have to be "timeless" "powerful" or "benevolent." — Frank Apisa
Any conclusion you make is nothing more than a blind guess. — Frank Apisa
↪Frank Apisa
I don't need God. For example, I am very much a humanist, I think that humans should help themselves rather than rely on the possibility of God helping them (see https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/5437/the-eternal-life-company/p1 for example).
But humanist or not, I am still interested in whether there is a God or not and probability is a more enlightening approach that just saying 'I don't know'. — Devans99
↪Frank Apisa
Probability that a creator of the universe exists (I’ve plugged in very conservative estimates this time):
1. Start at 50% / 50% for a unknown boolean proposition
2. The start of time/Big Bang: 50% + 50% * 50% = 75%
3. Fine tuning of the universe for life: 75% + 25% * 50% = 87.5%
4. Why is there something rather than nothing 87.5% + 12.5% * 25% = 90.6%
So a 91% chance of the existence of a creator of the universe.
What exactly am I ‘pretending’ about? Why is it fiction? It looks like a perfectly valid probability analysis to me. It could be more detailed I grant and the actual numbers used are guesstimates but it is still a more refined approach to the problem than just saying 'I don't know'. — Devans99
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