Although this new decoupling of the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration is apparently not the MV originally intended and it's a dog's dinner.

Yes. And sublime hypocrisy that the rejection of a second referendum (in favour of repeated attempts to get this through) is based on the idea that you shouldn't get to keep asking the same question until you get the answer you want. — Baden

Thanks for pointing this out, it's the icing on the Brexit crumpet.

I have to admit that a second referendum, which I have been arguing as more probable (though far from guaranteed), seems less likely now, and that May's strategy of "my deal" or chaos may work out for the conservative party. But, it will be interesting if the deal fails to pass again. Likewise it will be interesting if it passes, what leaving out the political declaration part will mean down the road; will it lead to some sort of eternal brimbo, a brexitory of lost souls?

So Theresa tries to clinch the MV3-deal by offering BoJo and Moggle potential power by resigning, if either wins the Tory vote for class president. That might work. But you can ask whether the split is all that meaningful. The withdrawal agreement explicitly states:

The Union and the United Kingdom shall use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect
of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements
governing their future relationship referred to in the political declaration of 25/11/ 2018 and to
conduct the relevant procedures for the ratification or conclusion of those agreements, with a view
to ensuring that those agreements apply, to the extent possible, as from the end of the transition
period.

The exact agreements implementing the future relationship still need to stay within the boundaries of the political declaration. So a vote for the withdrawal agreement is a vote for the political declaration as well; especially when read in light of the considerations prefacing the withdrawal agreement.

May's deal? No. A different deal? No. No deal? No. Remain? No.

Fucking hell our country is a mess. — Michael

Brevolution?

If this is taking back control, I'd rather be losing control.

You have about 9 hours and 12 days left to move to Europe. You're still welcome.

Thanks! I guess the way we're making your governance look modern, competent, and vaguely rational, you can afford to be generous. :wink:

Does the human rights act include the right to Marmite?

As far as I know the right not to be governed by Boris Johnson is currently enjoyed by all non-UK citizens and may soon be enshrined in EU law.

I've got you covered: https://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi206448/marmite-yeast-extract

https://www.jumbo.com/marmite-yeast-extract-125g/235881POT/

Those are the two largest supermarket chains in the Netherlands and they both sell it. Whether it will remain in stock is another question but the product is owned by Unilever, which has a co-headquarter in Rotterdam so they'll probably move production somewhere that has a trade deal with the EU to avoid tariffs. That will be the case until such time the UK gets with the program and agrees to some sort of deal after first crashing out without one.

BoJo is the least of the UK's problems. He'll change his political opinions like his clothes, according to the fashion. It's that pretentious and pedantic Moggle who lies at every turn about how business will be better off. They won't be because they will immediately be confronted with tariffs when exporting to the EU and increased bureacracy to trade with the EU. And there will be issues with obtaining base materials for production of UK goods. It's going to suck for UK exporters and manufacturers.

And the real barometer for UK's long term economic performance will be what happens to foreign direct investment, which has enabled the UK to run a year-on-year trade deficit without it affecting wealth in the UK. If the FDI goes down significantly, it will be the main driver for less wealth in the UK in the long run. Whether that will happen is anyone's guess and depends in large part to what extent FDI is the result of investors seeing the UK as a convenient and efficient gateway into Europe or not. If that share is significant, then FDI will drop, if it isn't the UK will be fine in 10 years time despite short term losses.

I see one of them has upside-down marmite, but I can compromise and be flexible. I'm packing.

Wait, you can compromise and be flexible? Are you sure you're bwiddish?

As far as I know the right not to be governed by Boris Johnson is currently enjoyed by all non-UK citizens and may soon be enshrined in EU law. — Baden

Oh god. I'm not remotely superstitious, but just in case, please don't tempt fate. We don't want a repeat of what happened across the pond. Trump and Boris... can you imagine? :scream:

Moggle — Benkei

Oh fuck. Theresa, please don't go! :monkey:

.. can you imagine? — S

Unfortunately, yes, great allies entwined by locks of bad hair.

Yes. And sublime hypocrisy that the rejection of a second referendum (in favour of repeated attempts to get this through) is based on the idea that you shouldn't get to keep asking the same question until you get the answer you want. — Baden

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47752017

Failed again... Maybe there can be a people's vote now?

It's the Scottish ancestry coming out in a crisis.

The European Commission has released a statement following vote, calling no-deal "a likely scenario".
The statement reads: "The Commission regrets the negative vote in the House of Commons today.

"As per the European Council (Article 50) decision on 22 March, the period provided for in Article 50(3) is extended to 12 April.

"It will be for the UK to indicate the way forward before that date, for consideration by the European Council.

"A 'no-deal' scenario on 12 April is now a likely scenario. The EU has been preparing for this since December 2017 and is now fully prepared for a 'no-deal' scenario at midnight on 12 April. The EU will remain united.

"The benefits of the Withdrawal Agreement, including a transition period, will in no circumstances be replicated in a 'no-deal' scenario. Sectoral mini-deals are not an option."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-live-vote-result-theresa-may-deal-withdrawal-agreement-a8844831.html

So no mini-deal on marmite then. You know this means war, don't you?

Absolute deadlock in a Parliament which is against everything and for nothing, so the only way out looks to be a general election or a people's vote. In the meantime, expect more extensions.

I'm sure the Scots will be happy so long as they have their Irn Bru and heroin.

Does the human rights act include the right to Marmite? — unenlightened

Surely, yes! :up:

So no mini-deal on marmite then. You know this means war, don't you? — unenlightened

:up:

so long as they have their Irn Bru and heroin. — S

"Breu" and "breuroin".

Marmite and Unilever... let us hope they don't bring out a Ben & Jerry Marmite combo.

What is left but gallows humour? These are the people and the institutions that we are mandating to 'take back control'.

We're idiots, babe...

Failed again... Maybe there can be a people's vote now? — Evil

MV4, apparently. :roll:

"Breu" and "breuroin". — unenlightened

I love it! Pure genius! :rofl: :up:

You know what's funny? I'm on brextasy right now.

You know this means war, don't you? — unenlightened

My hope is 'withdrawal of Article 50'.

I've decided to become a hard brexiteer in order to further the causes of Irish unification, Scottish independence and the break up of the United Kingdom. There might even be some democratic reform come out of it - What's not to like about Right Wing Bigots stuffing things up in such an undeniable way? They will of course blame Corbyn and Bercow for everything, but people have already stopped listening...

I've decided to become a hard brexiteer in order to further the causes of Irish unification, Scottish independence and the break up of the United Kingdom. — unenlightened

Ah, the break up of the United Kingdom! People formerly know as 'the British', be ready to rip your clothes, hide yourself in a closet and sprinkle ash on yourself while mourning there about the unfathomable that happened.

Actually, if it would happen, I would love just hearing the utter gloom and the overwhelming sorrow, the effusive misery and the absolute destitution of optimism that the now ex-British born-again English would have to say, delivered hopefully in their affluent yet meticulous Oxford English, about the break up of the UK. Losing the Empire was one thing, but losing the British Isles? Not only that, losing the island where England lies, broken to what it was last time in the Middle Ages? Yes, and don't forget the Welsh. Move over, Oswald Sprengler.

And I can say that I would love this… because it's not going to happen.

But perhaps I can walk in your moccasins and have similar anxiety. In my case it's about the next elections just around the corner..and the "fear in what country I will wake up some day". The Green Party is purposing giving automatically every Iraqi a residence permit that comes here. So I guess, wellcome former ISIS fighters here. :razz:

Don't worry, us Canadians will always be part of your Kingdom -- well at least until we have a referendum, then bye bye.

And sublime hypocrisy that the rejection of a second referendum (in favour of repeated attempts to get this through) is based on the idea that you shouldn't get to keep asking the same question until you get the answer you want. — Baden

Get some advise from the Québécois they know how to change the question to avoid the accusation of asking the same question. They also know a lot of other tricks which best be kept out of Trump's hands.

I'm always a bit baffled by 'Ze Vill of Ze Peepul'. Which people - the ones of 2016 or now? If this idiocy breaks up the UK, that's great, but I fear that the huge (30%) immigrant vote here might mean that we were left alone with the English, to be robbed and bullied forever. Better death!

Before you can discern the will of the people, you have to decide the extent of the people.

Therefore, questions of nationhood cannot be decided democratically, though folks like to pretend they can. Likewise, by what voting system is the voting system to be decided? Boundaries and systems of governance are necessarily prior to democracy, and cannot be settled democratically.

One must have recourse to tradition, to geography, to force majeure, to sentiment, to something or other fundamentally morally indefensible. 'We, the people' are of a certain age, a certain race and gender, speak a certain language, live within certain lines. These are decisions that have to be made on the streets, before decisions can be made at the ballot box.

This is why populism is destructive of democracy.

the huge (30%) immigrant vote — iolo

So there are immigrants and natives? And which group gets to count that 30%? Am I native if I am born here, or my parents were born here, or my skin is white? Who decides, and then who decides what the decision means?

"Better death!" - when that becomes the will of the people, it is time to leave.