↪Gnostic Christian Bishop
I don't really feel like going into it right now but certainly, it's far, far, far less to resolve all poverty in America than just stealing all the .1% wealth. Such extremes aren't necessary, people just wrongly believe poverty is a character flaw and that redistribution isn't even fair but I believe things will change, eventually. It is more of a cultural problem than a logistical problem though. — Judaka

We are not talking all of the riche's cash. We are talking crumbs from their table.

We are talking of systems used by the rich to impose poverty onto our population.

We are talking a fair taxing system instead of the one we now have that favors the rich at the expense of the poor.

Regards
DL

Moral of the story: There are not enough rich people to pay the government's $4T annual tab. — fishfry

I agree and that is why billionaires should create a lot more millionaires.

It is immoral to subject a population to poverty when the country and it's people are so rich.

Regards
DL

The problem is distribution.

We can work that out...and we insult ourselves by not having already done so. — Frank Apisa

I agree.

Look at the resistance that even suggesting a new way of thinking brings.

Regards
DL

On the other hand, I like to think of myself as a pragmatist. The case has been made that providing everyone with a guaranteed minimum income would actually be cheaper than the current welfare system. It would certainly be less complicated. If that's true, I would consider supporting the idea. — T Clark

I am all in for that.

Regards
DL

So unless you can can see a way to remove the obscenely wealthy and powerful. Things will carry on just the way they are. — Nort Fragrant

I like that we have rich people.
I dislike that we are letting them impose poverty on our rich nations.

Regards
DL

Thank you.

And I agree with what you were suggesting in your subsequent post. Nothing wrong with havng rich people at all.

But it makes no sense for a nation with as much as we have...to have people who are poor. Fact is, in a world with as much wealth as we now have on planet Earth...is makes no sense for ANYONE to be poor.

Everyone should have sufficient for a reasonable, comfortable life.

And I agree with what you were suggesting in your subsequent post. Nothing wrong with havng rich people at all.

But it makes no sense for a nation with as much as we have...to have people who are poor. Fact is, in a world with as much wealth as we now have on planet Earth...is makes no sense for ANYONE to be poor.

Everyone should have sufficient for a reasonable, comfortable life. — Frank Apisa

I agree. The world is getting more moral but we still have a ways to go.

Regards
DL

Wealth is a matter of perception, most rich people still think they are not wealthy, and want more.
I do think there needs to be a celling, a cut of point to stop people getting to extravagant. Plus a low floor that all of us working people can stay above, so we can at least have some semblance of a comfortable life.
When I see the obscene waist by those wealthy waist of time humans I get sick to the stomach.
Perhaps we could swop places at 40, then see how they like having nothing.

If we carry on as we have, this Earth will run dry. Then the wealthy will zip off to some space station and laugh them selfs silly.

By regulating income, and waist, We can significantly reduce the ware on the Earth. Then we need to reduce our population, else we are not going to do very well.

Or we carry on regardless, and enjoy the good old days. As that is what now is.

What the heck, lets go racing our big fast cars, have larger houses, more planes. Lets burn off all the oil, pile up the plastic, and chop down the last tree. What smart people we are!

we have the cpu power as well as cell phones with alot of cpu power that we could design websites that allow the problems of bartering to be eliminated. Please read this very short essay that my friend brought up:

A friend of mine gave me a idea on how to make bartering work almost as well as the use of money. It involves using servers and possibly thin clients where a person would be registered in the system just like many websites, and then the user would offer a good or service. The program or website would use data mining to find a scale from 1 to 100 for conservative and liberal estimates (respectivelly) of what that good or service is worth in monetary terms and then the user would say what good or service they want to exchange for (that would also have a scale value in monetary terms). The user would decide what value on the scale she wants. The user would be rewarded by the algorithm and the website by a quicker response if she chooses a conservative value on the scale. Since 99% of users would be able to get the swap they want by only swapping with up to 200 users that would be sufficient. In most cases a user could get what they want by less than 5 people swapping goods and services. The users who respond the quickest by agree to the all the transactions that would have to take place would be rewarded with a very small amount of money (similar to youtube's reward system).

The switching algorithm that decides between all the people involved in the huge "trade off" would borrow heavliy from a router or ARP packet switching system (computer network communication). It would also have some elements that are not used in ARP packet switching. ARP white papers can be found online.

At the end of the process using computer processing and many trades among users all users will have traded their goods and services for other people's goods and services.

Feel free to use my friend's idea to start your business or expand your business. My friend wants to see this get accomplished again sooner rather than later.

I think this is a purely mathematical question with a mathematical resolve. I, for one, do not have the motivation to resolve the issue mathematically.

Nort Fragrant — Nort Fragrant

I agree that we are short sighted and not too bright in how we carry on business and look to the poor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpkGvk1rQBI

Regards
DL

James Statter — James Statter

Barter is what we do now with cash.

It would be impossible for most who produce a product to have to carry their product with them when shopping.

Our trade is too complex for barter and that is likely why so little bartering is done these days.

Regards
DL

100

I think this is a purely mathematical question with a mathematical resolve. I, for one, do not have the motivation to resolve the issue mathematically. — Josh Alfred

You do not have to as it is easily visualized.

Have a look at this and just imagine the benefits if a brick or two, a really small amount of cash, was moved from the extreme right side of the graph to the extreme left.

https://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-americans-are-completely-wrong-about-this-mind-blowing-fact-2

Regards
DL

@
"Gnostic Christian Bishop"

I don't expect you to believe this bartering website would work just based off of a short description but one of the things this site does is between 5 to 200 people trying to get what they want each person would only have to ship one item or a set of item to one other person (or provide a service to one other person). The software would coordinate everything so that even though what you are providing isn't directly applied to who you are recieving your good or service, every on in fact would be getting their good or service for their desired good or service and all this is coordinated through the algorithm on the server. Modern society has certailnly designed much more complex software but i've been wrong before.

Looks like we have nothing to worry about with regard to rich and poor. Ai will see us right! The good old days will soon be over! Yes Ai will sort it out for us, it will take control of the internet, your phones, and what you can and cannot do have or go. Then when it figures out we humans are a waist of resources, we will be left to wither away. Your phone wont work, your account will be empty, and there will be not a lot of produce available!
It will be Ai that exits this world, and colonises the universe not us. We are to vulnerable, too expensive to run, and we squabble too much!
Best we stay in our soon to be Zoo, and have Ai visitors come and watch us scratch about on the surface.
So prepare for the soon to arrive change in what you think you are, I doubt most will like it !
In comparison we humans are the single cell ameba at the beginning of the next evolutionary step.
And this evolutionary step will be running a whole lot faster than we ever could.
Buy Buy Kansas.

James Statter — James Statter

I have no doubt that a barter system will always have some few people who will have things to trade. Kajijjy does that.

If I am a farmer, what could a car salesman possibly have that I would want when I already have a truck?

If a barter system worked for anything like the masjority, your food would be delivered by a farmer and not some store, I have been in sales all my life and would thumbs down bartering systems.

Regards
DL

So prepare for the soon to arrive change in what you think you are, — Nort Fragrant

I look forward to having stupid people given information from a logic and reason machine as they presently ignore their smarter brethren.

Do you think it better to be ruled by liars like Trump and Pope Francis or by a computer that cannot and will not lie.

I can take the truth. Can you?

Regards
DL

i'll have to rewrite that article on electronically assisted bartering so that it is more elaborate. My hope was that someone would understand what i was getting at. In my understanding of modern algorithms is that they can be very complex. I do find it unlikely that i would be able to write the software by my self which is why i was hoping mulitple organizations or groups other than myself would write it.

Only time will tell.

No need to bother with your algorithm bartering, Ai will be in charge of that.

And as far as our lie masters are concerned, there time will also soon come to an end. ( We know they lie, yet still we put them in power) who’s the stupid one’s?

The truth is what you want it to be, not what some else says it is. so we can at the moment make our own minds on that matter.

there time will also soon come to an end. — Nort Fragrant

Soon!!!

Let us pray. Not that that is worth anything.

What change do you see happening that will get the masses to stop putting up with the outright fraud that we presently allow from lying religions and politicians.

Regards
DL

i'll have to rewrite that article on electronically assisted bartering so that it is more elaborate. — James Statter

No need. It is easy to understand but nearly impossible to implement. That is why we use cash value instead of good and services value.

Take your own case, if you are working.

If you are in a home factory making widget A, what good is it to those you wish to trade with if they have no need for widget A or your skill in making them?

Finding a buyer with something he has that you want becomes nearly impossible.

That is why factories sell to various outlets known to all customers/traders who just use cash to barter with instead of goods and services. Your idea is ok for local, but not for global.

Economy of scale comes into play and that takes central distribution and not individual local distribution.

Regards
DL

The change is already underway, and most have not an inkling it is happening.
With the advancement of computing power, the introduction of robots, and now the Ai factor . We have started something we can not stop.
All ready the thinking and problem solving is well and truly entrenched, this will only proceed faster and faster, as the rich see the benefits for them in the short term. What they will not be-able to do is stop the ingress of Ai in and through the internet.
Then with the ability to think, solve, produce what ever Ai needs to take control It will. And not you or i, and indeed more so the rice can do is to stop it from happening.
We will become a side show to the sudden advancement of this new entity.

The learning curve For Ai is almost vertical, So when it get’s traction. It will be out of our control.

Enjoy your time now, we are to be replaced.

Nort Fragrant

I think you overestimate the progress we will collectively allow.

I hope I am wrong, but based on the collective intelligence, logic and reason produced by the U.N. on climate change in their reports, --- which the world is ignoring, --- I think an A I telling us the right thing to do, just as the U.N. did, will also be ignored.

What you envisage, I think, will not come even close to happening until we move to a one world government. That is when the leader will rule by demographics and A I or just plain old human intelligence.

Regards
DL

The current western governing system favours those in power, so that needs an overhaul, or removal.
Money, Has it’s eval grip on us all, That too needs to go.
Democracy is a sham, just look at England at the moment, So called intelligent people put in power to put things right!
We need a world governing Friendly Dictator ( if there is such a thing )
So then insteps the Ai factor again, programmed to be fair, honest, and in the interest of everyone.
Will this happen voluntarily? No.
Too many fat cats will throw a tantrum, so don’t hold your breath waiting for utopia.
The other option is to wait for a magnitude1 catastrophe, then we all, who ever is left alive, go about our local commune singing songs and waving our arms in the air.

In conclusion: Nothings going to change until we are forced to do so.

When I was young, we had the luxury of ice-cream on a Sunday.
This may at first seem not that relevant!
Now the ice-cream came in a cardboard wrapping, and was when unwrapped square. This permitted the ceremony to commence.
My farther made slight indentation’s in the top of the ice-cream with a knife to mark 5 equal portions. Then all 5 of us had to agree that each was the same size. If not, the knife smoothed over the indentations and re marked the top.
Now this could take a while for us all to agree, But then the ice-cream would begin to melt and a decision had to be made.
If a friendly fair family struggle to agree, what chance is there for greedy people to agree?
The reason most who are in power, is that they are greedy and want more for them selves and don’t care about others.
Clearly an unfair system.
We humans are are notorious for being greedy, so we are not the ones to govern us.

Ai is.

I admit cash will always be more straight forward than bartering but i believe through a sophisticated piece of software bartering could become tremendously easier. I guess i did a poor job describing the software idea in the 5 paragraph essay.

Nort Fragrant

Thee current western governing system favours those in power, so that needs an overhaul, or removal. — Nort Fragrant

Those in power have it because the masses have given it to them and those masses will not let the minority rule.

In conclusion: Nothings going to change until we are forced to do so. — Nort Fragrant

We have basically always lived slaved to our oligarch owners.
Changes have happened for the good as well as the evil so to say that only force and not intelligence will create change would not be accurate.

Regards
DL

We humans are are notorious for being greedy, so we are not the ones to govern us.

Ai is — Nort Fragrant

Yet it is our selfish gene that has gotten us this far.

We have no idea how an A I would rule so to say that it would do better than us is pre-mature.

I do not mind trusting data that an A I would produce but do not yet know if it would know of the honor and duty that man owes society.

For instance. An A I would have us all have equal rights, while ignoring the logic behind the unequal rights that mankind decided on when writing the law of the sea that rightly put's women and children above men, where they belong.

Regards
DL

I admit cash will always be more straight forward than bartering but i believe through a sophisticated piece of software bartering could become tremendously easier. I guess i did a poor job describing the software idea in the 5 paragraph essay — James Statter

The software is not the problem. That would actually be the easy part.

The problem is getting the goods ands services to the one who might want them as he might be quite far away.

Take Canada's asbestos. We now ship it to India while outlawing it's sale here.

Your idea is sound but you fail to recognize that we have substituted actually bartering with individuals to just dumping all into a massive (warehouse), taking the cash value and just buying what we need or want. We are already, in that sense, doing what you think we should do. Just not individual to individual directly but by dealing directly with distributors and middle men.

That does add value to goods and services but do not forget that we live in a make work/jobs economy. many would starve to death if we were as efficient as we could be.

Regards
DL

If governments controlled disposable income of the .1 %, would poverty end? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I have no idea what the total cost would be, and what the total disposable income of the 0.1% comes out to nowadays.

Moreover, I'm not sure it's enough to go after disposable income. In addition to a progressive income tax, I'd recommend a robust wealth tax and strict limits on inheritance. Let's add to that a universal income and a core economy maintained or strictly regulated by a global government for the sake of the general welfare of the people of Earth.

Alas, I'm not sure that program's any less likely to be realized than the one you've proposed.