Following up on the post I sent out a few minutes ago, here is my preliminary take on what some of our values are. What kinds of values are there? Moral, political, social, intellectual, aesthetic. What else?

The Boy Scout Law:
A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

I always do a finger count with this to check how well I measure up. I come up with 7 out of 12.

Here’s a list of the values of Western Culture from the web:

• Democracy.
• Rational thinking.
• Individualism.
• Christianity.
• Capitalism.
• Modern technology.
• Human rights.
• Scientific thinking.

My personal values, in no particular order:

• Loyalty - social
• Honesty - social
• Kindness – moral/social
• Competence – social/intellectual
• Intelligence – intellectual
• Playfulness – intellectual/social
• Trustworthiness – moral/social
• Reason – intellectual
• Fairness – social/political

I hope I can fiddle around with all of these and I can make a better list. Then maybe I’ll come back and start a new thread to discuss the place these values have in our lives.

I have a feeling these are too simplistic and that there's another set of values underneath that drive these. Any ideas?

I value different things in different people. My wife, for example, is responsible, kind, loving, empathetic, and loyal. My older son, for example, is sarcastic (in a good way) and funny, and I like it when he’s cheerful (though he isn’t always). My younger son is smart and analytical.

I think I hit on a lot of the values you named.

You missed something here. You left out philosophical approaches that attack the whole enterprise of ferreting out a particular value system and privileging it over others. The project of moral philosophy is the justifying of a metaphysics. Nietzsche comes to mind as a prominent critic of such attempts to ground ethics via metaphysics. In his 'Beyond Good and Evil' and other works, he argues that the basis of values (and by the way, it was Nietzsche who originated the modern expression of having 'values', that you're now making use of) is the Will to Power, which is a principle stating that human rationality and truth is relative and perspectival, and framed within our value systems. He also argued that our value systems are in a state of continual self-transformation; they change along with our individual and cultural perspectives. Thus, the essence of being human is becoming(not progress, but the endless movement from value system to value system). To the extent that Nietzsche, along with much of postmodern philosophy, offers an ethical argument, it is that of encouraging teh fluidity of becoming and warning against individuals and cultures becoming temporarily stuck on any particular ethical precepts or system of rules, such as your list above. If you added self-transformation, becoming and thinking beyond good and evil to the list that would help..

Judging by your declared values I would guess that you’re politically liberal or perhaps independent. It’s not too clear as listed. Definitely not libertarian.

Judging by your declared values I would guess that you’re politically liberal or perhaps independent. It’s not too clear as listed. Definitely not libertarian. — praxis

Yes, I am a liberal. When I read your comment, I asked myself - Did I leave any of my personal values out of the list that might be considered more conservative. The one I thought of is responsibility.

What other more conservative values are there? Social stability? Security, Honor? Emphasis on tradition? Patriotism? Religious devotion? I'm trying to be fair, but I'm probably not the one to fill in this list.

What would a libertarian's values be? Individuality? Responsibility? Self-reliance? Distrust of social institutions?

And what are your personal values.

You missed something here. You left out philosophical approaches that attack the whole enterprise of ferreting out a particular value system and privileging it over others. — Joshs

I don't think I left it out. I don't think it comes under the heading of "What are our values?" As I indicated in the OP, broader issues of the place values hold in our philosophies and our lives are not the intended subject of this thread. I'm hoping to talk about them later.

I understand the importance of values; but, how do you delineate when someone becomes dogmatic in their enshrinement and else?

I'm particularly averse towards nationalism. It's sort of the thing that arises when values are valued for their own sake, without rational inquiry about their application or validness.

"As I indicated in the OP, broader issues of the place values hold in our philosophies and our lives are not the intended subject of this thread. I'm hoping to talk about them later.

Seems to me what you indicated in the OP was you didn't want to discuss the place that OBJECTIVITY
holds in our lives.

'Talk of objectivity obscures the extent to which human value directs our thoughts, feelings, and decisions."

I totally agree with you that human value directs our lives. Nietzsche agrees with you too.
that's why he placed valuation as the pinnacle of what it means to be human.
And Nietzsche's top value was the becoming of values.

Some of us will have conflicting values, but because we've all sought out this forum, it's likely that we all share the value of wanting to learn.

Speaking for myself, one of my fundamental core values is learning in and of itself. I enjoy learning on an intrinsic level (it's pleasurable), and I also value learning because of the way knowledge positively relates to just about every other possible value.

The first time I formulated an answer to "what is the meaning of life?" it was something like "I don't know, but I enjoy learning, and maybe one day if I learn enough I'll figure out what the meaning of life is; until then, I'll just keep learning."

Beyond "learning", I value survival; freedom from oppression, pain and discomfort; the freedom to pursue my own interests; and the health and safety of others. (The requisites of eudaimonia).

You mentioned specific values like loyalty and honesty, and in general I tend to agree, but to be strict, I only value loyalty and honesty because they support the values I just mentioned (among other fundamental values), not because honesty and loyalty are inherently good. In other words, there is a time and a place for disloyalty, as well as dishonesty; they are means to an end, they are not ends.

Is there a difference between a virtue and a value? Be there hierarchical structure?

It's not clear to me what you're asking in this thread.

It seems kind of like "Here are a few random comments about values. Go!"

Seems to me what you indicated in the OP was you didn't want to discuss the place that OBJECTIVITY
holds in our lives. — Joshs

What I'd like discuss is specific values held by the people of the forum. I'm trying to put together a list of what I think my central personal values are.

So what are our values? — T Clark

What about things that people sure seem to "value", but are less likely to admit?

aesthetics (vanity, judging appearances, etc)

popularity (being cool - what IS cool may vary, but few people seem capable of escaping the desire of being admired - I occasionally like to think I have, but I am probably just conditioned to being chronically un-cool :nerd:)

power (superiority)

Are these "values" in the same way as the one you have listed?

I'm particularly averse towards nationalism. — Wallows

I find that one confusing as well. Not to mention obviously detrimental to world affairs.

What about things that people sure seem to "value", but are less likely to admit?

aesthetics (vanity, judging appearances, etc)

popularity (being cool - what IS cool may vary, but few people seem capable of escaping the desire of being admired - I occasionally like to think I have, but I am probably just conditioned to being chronically un-cool :nerd:)

power (superiority)

Are these "values" in the same way as the one you have listed? — ZhouBoTong

After I wrote my first posts in this thread, I was thinking about things like this - values that come out of less admirable aspects of who we are. Could they all be included under a value of status, which would be a social value I didn't include in my list. So does "value" really mean a motivating factor rather than an ideal?

In a sense, I guess our primitive drives - self-preservation, procreation, security - are our most basic values.

What other more conservative values are there? Social stability? Security, Honor? Emphasis on tradition? Patriotism? Religious devotion? I'm trying to be fair, but I'm probably not the one to fill in this list. — T Clark

According to moral foundation theory, conservatives tend to be more well-rounded in their values or moral intuitions and are believed to be less open to change or new experiences. Liberals tend to focus on compassion and fairness, neglecting the values of authority, sanctity, and loyalty. Your valuing loyalty puts you closer to the right, which should make it easier for you to relate to conservatives.

I don't value loyalty, particularly, nor authority or sacredness. With the exception of loyalty, my list would be similar to yours.

I suppose we focus on values that are relevant to each other and affect our morality, such as honesty, truth, etc. I value fitness, for instance, but that has far less relevance to others than my valuing fairness or compassion, or particularly for this forum, truth and reason.

"Our primitive drives - self-preservation, procreation, security - are our most basic values. "

Nietzsche wrote:"Physiologists should think twice before positioning the drive for self preservation as the cardinal drive of an organic being."

The drive for self-preservation doesn't explain love and creativity very well, unless you add this corrective: What organisms preserve is nothing static, like a rock. Living beings are activities, systems of exchanges with an environment. The 'self' that they preserve is a continually transforming process that must adapt itself to every new element that it assimilates into itself, but it must adapt itself without losing its overall integrity..The continued survival of an organism is the preservation of a certain organized integrity of change. So one could say that the drive for self-preservation is more fundamentally the drive for self-consistency though change. It is creativity itself, if creativity is understood as the anticipatory incorporation of new experiencing a way that preserves the integrity of the self system as a whole. The more aggressively we self-transformatively assimilate new experience, the more effectively we preserve ourselves. Thus , adopting and changing perspectives and value systems is in line with our fundamental drive of creative self-overcoming.

obedient ... reverent ... capitalism — T Clark

An objection with something in the section that you placed out of bounds: (I've never been big on obedience). Fuck reverence and capitalism.

obscures the extent to which human value directs our thoughts, feelings, and decisions. — T Clark

Do "values" direct our thoughts, feelings, and decisions, or are values the result of our thoughts, feelings, and decisions? It may be the case that personal values, at least, are a consequence of emotion first, thoughts second, and decisions third. I submit this more as a question than a fact. Which comes first--emotion or value--is a distinction that makes a difference. How do we raise children with the kind of personal values (e.g. Boy Scout model) that we want them to manifest in their lives?

Values don't just appear, we know that for sure. Drilling them into children's head gives them the form ("I can not tell a lie", "I will not abuse the cat" ...) but it doesn't give them any motivation to be truthful, or to be nice to the cat.

It seems to me that the key to teaching children good values is first establishing loving relationships in the family. (No love? Just forget the rest of this.). The loving relationship between the parents and between parent and child is where the motivation comes from to please the parent by emulating their behavior. We don't teach children values (initially, anyway) by drilling theory into their heads. Children acquire the parents' values by emulation, then thinking, then by making decisions.

Later on, we add formality to the values instruction, building on the bonds of affection that motivate the wish to be good in the way the parent desires. We tell the child to be honest, play fair, and don't cheat. We tell them to follow the law. No stealing. Be loyal to your country; respect the police, congressmen and women, the Supreme Court, and the President (even if you have to hold your nose and keep a barf bag handy).

The basic principle of anarchism seems to be a value worth holding to - that is to challange authority rather than follow out of duty. That said, I guess SOME people should follow out of a sense of duty for there to be an “authority” in teh first place!

It does appear to be the natural human disposition anyway. We grow from a state of anarchy and rebellion (child learn by testing the boundaries of authority) and then add our own layer of blood and sweat to the foundations for the next bunch of intrepid adventurers to defame.

Personally I see nationalism, patriotism and loyalty as limited forms of interconnection;
Learning, intelligence and competence as limited forms of awareness;
Honesty and trustworthiness as limited forms of integrity.

When values are upheld in these limited forms, they can contradict each other. So valuing loyalty can lead to dishonesty, valuing learning can compromise nationalism, and valuing trustworthiness can compromise patriotism.

I value:
Awareness, interconnection and love (as actualising potentiality)
Integrity, self control and patience
Kindness, generosity and kindness
Peace, joy and hope

Children who are not aided in building a value set may miss the boat on developing useful, socially desirable values. At best they will have a stunted, deformed, barely functioning value system -- something like an incompetent immune system.

I value:
Awareness, interconnection and love (as actualising potentiality)
Integrity, self control and patience
Kindness, generosity and kindness
Peace, joy and hope — Possibility

That's nice, but aren't these all limited? (Just reacting to your qualifications in the part that preceded the quoted section.)

I guess that depends on how you understand them. I think as an individual human being they are all limited, but when we strive for the first three beyond our physical existence, the others tend to broaden in relation to them, in my experience.

Values don't just appear, we know that for sure. Drilling them into children's head gives them the form ("I can not tell a lie", "I will not abuse the cat" ...) but it doesn't give them any motivation to be truthful, or to be nice to the cat.

It seems to me that the key to teaching children good values is first establishing loving relationships in the family. (No love? Just forget the rest of this.). The loving relationship between the parents and between parent and child is where the motivation comes from to please the parent by emulating their behavior. We don't teach children values (initially, anyway) by drilling theory into their heads. Children acquire the parents' values by emulation, then thinking, then by making decisions.

Later on, we add formality to the values instruction, building on the bonds of affection that motivate the wish to be good in the way the parent desires. We tell the child to be honest, play fair, and don't cheat. We tell them to follow the law. No stealing. Be loyal to your country; respect the police, congressmen and women, the Supreme Court, and the President (even if you have to hold your nose and keep a barf bag handy). — Bitter Crank

I agree that we teach values to children mainly through the relationship we develop and the example we set. Children don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. But to be honest, it usually starts with physical guidance/restriction/coercion, and then a set of rules and regulations designed to guide specific actions towards the values we aim to teach them. Distraction, physical removal or a simple ‘no’ become “Tell the truth” or “don’t hurt the cat”, then later become “be honest” or “be kind to animals”, and then gradually broaden into integrity and kindness based on the behaviours we demonstrate, expect and reward, the language we use to teach them and the extent to which we show compassion and support for their struggle to uphold them.

We can tell a child to ‘follow the law’, but if they observe us consistently doing things like driving over the speed limit or illegally downloading movies without qualification, then what these words come to mean for them is ‘follow the law (unless you can get away with not following it)’. We can also tell a child to ‘respect the President’, but if the President has done nothing to earn it then the child will question the meaning of ‘respect’ as applied to the police, Supreme Court, etc. Is it the position of office we respect or the person holding it, and what actions constitute ‘respect’ when the person abuses their position?

What I'd like discuss is specific values held by the people of the forum. I'm trying to put together a list of what I think my central personal values are. — T Clark

Ah . . . You're basically looking for folks' "Your Top 10 (or 20 or whatever) Values" lists? Mine would be something like (just in alphabetical order as I'm phrasing them):

Adventurousness, including intellectual curiosity
Appreciation of things for what they uniquely are
Avoidance of overreaction, especially when the reaction in question would penalize or punish others
Compassion/helpfulness/stewardship
Creativity/imagination
Easy-goingness/mellowness/relative lack of complaining, nagging, etc.
Existential authenticity
Friendliness
Iconoclasm/lack of desire for sacred cows/willingness to critically examine anything
Laissez-faireness/lack of a desire to control others/lack of a desire to pressure conformity
Love and passion
Open, honest expression and ability to deal with the same without getting upset
Patience
Pursuit of hedonistic desires, including freewheeling, polyamorous desires
Sense of humor/fun/play

Here’s a list of the values of Western Culture from the web:

Democracy.
Rational thinking.
Individualism.
Christianity.
Capitalism.
Modern technology.
Human rights.
Scientific thinking. — T Clark

I really find these lists of Western/Non-Western or liberal/conservative values rather annoying. Because those promoting them typically have this hubris about themselves, which makes them to have a condescending attitude towards others. It nearly approaches intellectual dishonesty. What is simply lacking is the acceptance of universal values. And that when something is indeed an universal value, it simply cannot be owned by some group.

Just to take the above list of Western values, how is 'rational thinking', 'scientific thinking' and 'modern technology' a trait of only the West?

The hubris can be seen from these people assuming that cultures that indeed do value similar traits have then just "Westernized". Those promoting Western values are at present fixated at Islam being this non-Western entity and leave out the elephant in the room, notably the non-Muslim Asian cultures of China or Japan. In fact, nobody mentions anymore Japan or South Korea in these debates as simply the two countries would show how shallow the whole argument of distinct Western values is.

And this problem is sure to surface is some left leaning person here starts to define what is leftist/liberal compared to right wing/conservative values.

Just to take the above list of Western values, how is 'rational thinking', 'scientific thinking' and 'modern technology' a trait of only the West? — ssu

Do they necessarily mean that those are uniquely western values?

Do they necessarily mean that those are uniquely western values? — Terrapin Station

It goes to that.

Now if we would say that a society, a group or lets say people in the PF value politeness, yes, people would understand that politeness is obviously an universal value. Yet when defining western values, you do have to assume that there indeed is something unique.

You're saying you have to interpret it that way because they're specifying western values?

Existential authenticity — Terrapin Station

Gotta hate fake existence.

I don't think I left it out. I don't think it comes under the heading of "What are our values?" As I indicated in the OP, broader issues of the place values hold in our philosophies and our lives are not the intended subject of this thread. I'm hoping to talk about them later. — T Clark

@Joshs, @Bitter Crank, @Terrapin Station, @s, @ssu, @Possibility, @i like sushi, @VagabondSpectre, @praxis, @ZhouBoTong.

As this discussion has developed, I can see it is unrealistic for me to have limited it to such a narrow focus. I think that's true because my own thoughts are so undeveloped at this point. It's probably a futile attempt anyway, given that @Bitter Crank has "never been big on obedience."

So, by the power vested in me as the Original Poster, I remove any restrictions on this discussion of values. Maybe I'll come back later and try a more focused approach once I have a better idea what I'm trying to say.

Diogenes and Nietzsche were good on values, as was Aristotle. The first two for critiquing traditional or popular values, and the latter for laying the basic groundwork with his virtue ethics. Also, the Stoics and the Buddha. And Horace. And Aesop's fables. There's so much of value there. The anecdotes of Diogenes, the reevaluation of values, the ubermensch, herd morality, master and slave morality, the eternal recurrence, thisworldliness and otherworldliness, life affirmation, the golden mean, the middle path, the detachment of Buddhism and self-control of Stoicism, dare to know, seize the day...