Young high school girls sure. But we're not discussing them at the moment. We're discussing grown-up women, some of them who don't do it merely to fit in. Do you not think such women exist? Do you think all women are good and all men are bad?Women dress the way they do to fit in, and be like their role models, and consumerism and marketing manipulates that, and before then some other asshole arbitrarily did. — Wosret
I do admit that he's motivated by money and power - as I said a different sort of liar from Hillary. Hillary is the person whom you play a video of her saying X in front of her face, and after watching she'll tell you she hasn't said X. Trump isn't like that. He'll admit he said X, but switched his position. There's a difference. — Agustino
So then, don't you think that women abusing men is also a serious issue, just like men abusing women is in its own right serious?I definitely like women more, and are more prone to falling for their shit, but history seems to be silent on them since the first immortals. — Wosret
The fact that our society forces women to find their self-esteem in their capacity to seduce men - including through the way they dress - is one of the issues that I have been speaking about. It's a (progressive) society which finds that such is good for women - that they dominate men.They only sell so many kinds of things, and few people make their own totally different cloths than anyone else. Categorization is built right into the system of options. Freedom within restraints. — Wosret
Well see that's the thing - you never admit to your biases. You are biased to Hillary and refuse to admit any defects of her - including the big one that sits right in front of everyone else's face that she's one of the biggest liars they've ever seen. I admit to mine - I even called Trump a baboon or a dangerous gorilla. You never do. To you it's just about proving leftism right, regardless of whether it really is... — Agustino
Trump's denials are not completely false. Take the Iraq war. It's a fact that Trump has shown concern about whether Iraq should be invaded very early on, even before the actual invasionBut they pale in comparison to Trump's numerous, blunt, adamant, repeated denials and affirmations of what is known to be demonstrably false. — Sapientia
Ok I understand your position.Well I'm thinking more of a grassroots movement than you are, perhaps. Whatever the political and economic elites have in mind need not dominate the agenda. Now this may indeed be a naive approach - without the control of media, academia, etc - but the widespread discontent I mentioned, and which manifested itself in both Bernie Sanders (on the Left) and Donald Trump (on the Right), clearly shows that the power you're assuming the traditional shot callers have is a bit exaggerated. — Erik
I know they aren't, except that many Americans WANT that mockery to occur already.Rest assured, 'average' Americans are not horrible people who would idly sit back and allow (the caricature of) progressives to make a mockery of their values. — Erik
Let's take for instance blacks. So you're saying that blacks are in agreement largely with socially conservative values no? So then why is their out of wedlock birth rate over 70%?Another thing you may not be aware of is that ethnic minorities in this country - increasingly the base of the Democrats - often hold some pretty conservative values. A message which eschews racism and xenophobia and instead seeks some commonalities between the races and cultures which inhabit this country would surely resonate with them. — Erik
That may be true - but I ask them simple questions - like should women abuse men - and they don't answer. They say women never abuse men. How can one not be outraged when they refuse to recognize a lot of the abuse that is going on?And regarding Baden (and most other progressives here), I respect him a great deal and think he'd be rather in undogmatic and open-minded IF his hypothetical intellectual adversary didn't mock or ridicule his positions, but on the contrary tried to genuinely understand where they come from. Which is not a bad place I might add from what little I know of them. Don't want this to be an encomia to Baden or our resident progressives, but they're mostly a very solid lot - FAR superior to the Donald Trumps and Sarah Palins of the world - and perhaps your constant hyperbole about them and their intentions stops the conversation before it's even had a legitimate chance to get started. — Erik
And I agree largely - but it's a fact that there's a point when one gets sick of dealing with progressive biases and being insulted for it repeatedly. Just look how time after time they're all shadow-boxing against some strawman of me. Look right above this post for example... takes a statement entirely out of context so that it matches with his idea of what I should be saying in his mind. Unbelievable.I basically think your style can be extremely off-putting, and I think you'd gain more credibility if you refrained from doing silly things like referencing 'CROOKED Hillary' just as Trump does. It makes it seem like you're a propagandist who has some ulterior motive for attacking her beyond her progressivism. — Erik
Right so Eastern Europe is cowering in fear because of Russia's growing influence and the West's inability to do anything about it, and I'm a Russian nationalist? >:O This is pure American (Cold War style) propaganda. It seems that the American mind still cannot let go of this Us against Russia thing. Either with us, or with Russia. The world is much richer than just that. I'm not a Russian nationalist. It's true that I admire some things about the Russians - others I don't. But why shouldn't one look at what's good in Russia? Should we close our eyes to them because they're Russian, and we Westerners hate Russians?although the fact that you may be a Russian nationalist causes one to speculate a bit — Erik
In what context did I say that? Let me remind you...Abusers vs. abusers. Nobody is not guilty. — Benkei
So do you think that women trained to seduce men - like Cleopatra seduced Caesar and Mark Antony - aren't abusers? Do you think that men like Trump aren't abusers? So if you think both of these are abusers, then does it not follow that in that context, it is abuser vs abuser - and that nobody is "not guilty" there?On the other side, women are trained precisely to SEDUCE men - their sense of self-esteem is tied to their capacity to do so - and therefore they are trained to be todays Cleopatras and turn the Trumps on the fingers of their hands. Abuser vs abuser - nobody is "not-guilty" here. — Agustino
So if women were to seek to have power and dominate others through the way they dress... — Agustino
Just like all Trump voters are a basket of deplorables right? You progressives must all be the same - liars and coverup artists.And there's so much wrong with just that one paragraph it's rather sad you don't even have an inkling of what's wrong with it. The world would be a much better place for women if men like you would all die off rather sooner than later. — Benkei
Excuse me - another strawman. I never claimed (all) the women abused by Trump were like this. So stop lying.The problem here is your assumptions and ridiculous generalisation and the equivocation of the women abused by Trump with your silly generalisations. — Benkei
Another loaded statement.it's prevalent among conservative surroundings that objectify women. — Benkei
So women living with their husbands is bad - we need the sexual liberation of promiscuity and the abuse that comes with it right? That's your vision of the world? That's disgusting.It's thanks to progressivism women moved away from living under the joke of their husbands and with it came sexual liberation — Benkei
Ehmm did I say they shouldn't have a right to this? >:O I said even if they dress inappropriately, they shouldn't be disrespected, insulted, etc.the right for women to choose how to dress when and where and with whom to have sex — Benkei
Yeah - so because men try to dominate women, women should try to dominate men. Bravo! You get the progressive award for honesty, thanks for admitting that. I guess you'll be happy to hear then that you'll never get rid of the Trumps. The more women abuse men, the more men there will be abusing women - and the converse also holds true by the way before you start saying some shit about me being a misogynist.But there's nothing shameful about it, because it's nothing else than men (try to) do — Benkei
Oh yeah - it's not abuse if you let them right? Just like it's not abuse if they let Donald J. Trump right? You can't be serious. All that the slave has to do is agree with his chains, then his condition ceases to be slavery right? How cute...In the end, a woman doesn't seduce me, I let her seduce me. — Benkei
Trump's denials are not completely false. Take the Iraq war. It's a fact that Trump has shown concern about whether Iraq should be invaded very early on, even before the actual invasion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMgQAyZC-Vg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThwaDSaoGU8
It's true he didn't take a strong stand on it either way - either fully endorsing invade or fully endorsing not invade. But that doesn't mean he was FOR the war in Iraq. But he has started to condemn it way before we actually decided to get out of Iraq. So the propaganda of the leftist media is just that propaganda. The right also engages in propaganda, such as he has always strongly condemned the war. That's also not true. That's why you must listen to both Crooked News Network and also Fox News :P — Agustino
I'm not sure - as I said I don't trust these sites - neither what they say about Trump nor about Clinton. I prefer to look at things for myself and verify the facts myself. From doing this the impression I've got at least is that Clinton is certainly a bigger liar than Trump, but Trump is a better trickster.Some of Trump's denials are completely false. A relatively large number in fact, and a greater number than Clinton. You have picked a single example. Yet, if we look at one of the fact checking sites (and there are plenty of other such sites with similar findings), PolitiFact, and go to the file on Donald Trump, we can see that out of the statements of his they examined, 102 (34%) of his them are categorised as false, and 52 (18%) of them are categorised as pants on fire. — Sapientia
I naturally agree, although I think the real-politik will always prevail, and nations will always seek their own interest above mutual interests. I think conflicts between nations are unavoidable. I expect the US to do everything it can to screw Russia over for example. I expect the Russians to do everything they can to screw the US over. But I would like if their people realised this, and understood that it's just a political game that is being played out and nothing more.I would rather seek out some common goals which I feel would benefit all people on this planet. So go ahead and accuse me of wishful thinking or naivety, but please don't assume I'm taken in by my own country's blatant and self-serving propaganda. We clearly need to get our own house in order before even considering exporting our model abroad. I'd make the friendly recommendation that others do the same. My only real 'enemy' is the narrow and shortsighted mindset which underlies and reinforces both the internal decadence and the external power politics that my country manifests. Nietzsche's notion of the Cold Monster in TSZ is one that really resonates with me. — Erik
Such as?There are conservatives on the forums — Baden
I'm trying to make a point, not win a debate and public approval. We're not doing politics here, we're doing philosophy. The whole idea is to have ideas fight - not to get stuck up at the personal levels, as many of my opponents in this thread have.I find it impossible to understand Agustino's approach to this discussion though. It seems utterly self-defeating. — Baden
>:O I'm just having a good laugh. I think Trump actually gave her a good name. She is Crooked. My question is why do you get stuck on the fact that I call her Crooked instead of dealing with the content of my ideas?The fact that you think you are doing philosophy illustrates my point. Just to take a minor example, can you explain what is philosophical either in style or substance about your continued references to "CROOKED HILLARY"? — Baden
I'm not sure - as I said I don't trust these sites - neither what they say about Trump nor about Clinton. I prefer to look at things for myself and verify the facts myself. — Agustino
From doing this, the impression I've got at least is that Clinton is certainly a bigger liar than Trump, but Trump is a better trickster. — Agustino
No I'm in the right-wing which says that men should inform themselves and be on top of the facts themselves. I'm part of the right-wing which distrusts authority and bowing down your head to them. I'm part of the right-wing which says that your own head is good enough to think through these issues and you don't need some higher up to tell you what to do.Oh jeez. So, you're part of this populist right-wing trend epitomised by Michael Gove's declaration that we've had enough of experts? Well, this is something beyond the scope of your personal preference. — Sapientia
Then don't care about it. You have to make your own decision - I just told you what I think based on my knowledge.And that means absolutely nothing in the broader scheme of things. Why should anyone care about your impression when there is stronger evidence which refutes it? — Sapientia
I will make the concession that Trump has been treated unfairly by the media vis-a-vis Hillary. Not suggesting he should be treated better, but rather that she should also be sharply condemned for her dishonesty and her cynical manipulation of the electorate. I don't think he's entirely delusional about that; she definitley gets preferential treatment and free passes on many things that he and other Republicans would be vilified for. So yes, there's corruption and those who enable it on both sides. — Erik
Good let's now see if any of the progressives will ever agree to this. I doubt it. — Agustino
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