Quick moral because I've written too much: facts are given against a background of meaning and significance by which they count as facts of a certain sort - in our example, 'houses turn into flowers', if true, could not be true of 'our' houses and flowers. And importantly, neither could it be false of our houses and flowers. — StreetlightX
Framing devices and their rhetorical background/discursive-conceptual structure/philosophical grammar could possibly have 'houses turn into flowers' as a metaphor or allegory — fdrake
That's the point: it's not facts that are stake here — StreetlightX
(3) Interpretation comes prior to truth value assignment — fdrake
Is this essentialism? Cavell's thesis seems to be that if our kind of houses do not turn into our kind of flowers, they must have an essential property, rather than an accidental property, that they turn into heaps of rubble when their existence as a house ends, rather than into a flower. — andrewk
one might make a distinction (which Cavell kinda does) between words which are 'only' their meanings (stipulations, metaphor), and words which take their significance from the world in which they are embedded - 'lived' meanings, as it were. Cavell speaks of words which 'have nothing but their meanings' (which are 'merely'/only conventional), and contrasts this with words that have a relation to the world, which take their intelligibility from how things are in the world (like the fact that houses are not the kind of thing which turn into flowers!). Both 'kinds' of words are of course meaningful - one cannot deny that metaphor and so on are meaningful; but the danger is in confusing the two, in treating the one like the other. — StreetlightX
The first 2 require a metaphoric displacement just as much as the 3rd, even when they appear to be non-problematically intelligible. Simply determining something AS something is a transforming-performing. It understands, interprets, and articulates, and thereby "takes apart" and transnforms what it affirms. — Joshs
the distinction is more a matter of degree than kind; after all, even stipulation is a kind of way of life — StreetlightX
there must then be currently a set of kinds of things that I or 'we' say about houses and flowers - there must be, if this is what must undergo revision upon the revelation that houses turn into flowers. — StreetlightX
But no, you really mean that houses turn into flowers. After a moment of shock, assuming you're not joshing me, I realize I no longer know what counts as a house; nor a flower. The world in which these terms took on their significance has been totally upended for me. Note that something has shifted massively between the first and second 'receptions' of the claim 'houses turn into flowers'. The 'metaphorical reception' 'fits' into the world I know: I still know, despite the metaphorical use, what here counts as a flower and house. The literal reception throws that all out of what: what counts any more as a house or a flower? I'm no longer sure, the grammar of my concepts needs to be revised; what kind of thing(s) I say about houses and flowers needs to be revised. — StreetlightX
I can easily imagine a world in which Professor McGonagall could utter the incantation fleurismus! and wave her wand in just the right way to transfigure a bungalow into a peony. I could imagine a somewhat less magical world in which some sort of emotional or spiritual force field made a house spontaneously collapse in a cloud of dust when the last person that had lived in it died, and when the dust cleared, there was a bed of blooming roses. — andrewk
There's a wonderful and kind of cute discussion by Stanley Cavell — StreetlightX
I think these traumatic irruptions probably happen a lot, but in different settings, and this relativity of effect to setting seems key — csalisbury
SO the house, long disused, is pulverised, composted and suitably arranged at its location so as to form a flowerbed. — Banno
What if something really unheard-of happened? If I, say, saw houses gradually turning into steam without any obvious cause, if cattle in the fields stood on their heads and laughed and spoke comprehensible words; if trees gradually changed into men and men into trees. Now, was I right when I said before all these things happened ‘I know that that’s a house’ etc., or simply ‘that’s a house’ etc.? — Wittgenstein, On Certainty, 1969, p. 67, ~513
Sometimes we must assume that what has been said is true in order to work out what it meant - the Principle of Charity. — Banno
Sometimes we must assume that what has been said is true in order to work out what it meant - the Principle of Charity. — Banno
under what conditions are 'Get me a glass of water please' or 'Go away' or "in heaven I am a wild ox, on Earth I am a lion" true? — fdrake
The only universal condition is that of the subject, which is about as particular as it gets. — Merkwurdichliebe
Could you please rephrase your explanation, I didn't understand ? — Merkwurdichliebe
]Do we dare to open
Our minds and souls to even
Analyze it? Or should it rest in
Secrecy? All I know is that I can't
Deny its licentious attraction,
So I want the spirit to speak.
"In heaven I am a wild ox.
On earth I am a lion.
A jester from hell,
And the shadows almighty.
The scientist of darkness
Older than the constellations.
The mysterious jinx and
The error in heavens master plan." — Vintersorg, the Enigmatic Spirit
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