She may know that men are the majority of suicides, the majority of work related deaths, the majority of combat deaths, the majority of alcoholics, et cetera et cetera — Not Steve
so when I say "I and a person of color," I'm demonstrating that my opinion comes from the minority perspective as I do see a dichotomy of my civil rights as a person of color, and rights as a man. — Anaxagoras
The vast majority of feminists are humanists. — NKBJ
And most of them, including me, are frankly tired of people trying to strawperson the movement by saying it's about hating men. — NKBJ
I do think that the knee-jerk impulse to vilify feminists comes from a fear of men's privilege being uprooted. — NKBJ
It's very much like people trying to demonize any black rights movement by pointing to the outlier black racists who talk about killing cops — NKBJ
One sexist feminist/racist black does not discredit the entire movement. — NKBJ
But your message was that white people have nothing to whine about because they're white. — frank
Everybody has a struggle of some kind. — frank
If you want people to shut up and try to understand you, shut up and try to understand them. Right? — frank
In other words how can I get behind a movement about my gender when I'm still facing a battlefront of what I look like? — Anaxagoras
Issues should be prioritized based on individual necessity not by virtue of group identity. Identity politics have failed for thousands of years, and now that we have a far better system in place that promotes equal opportunity and individual freedom and liberty, a variety of fringe influences, some of them making ground, are pushing for regression into the dark ages. We're again bound to face an evil our ancestors fought to overcome. — whollyrolling
In other words how can I get behind a movement about my gender when I'm still facing a battlefront of what I look like? — Anaxagoras
A man's rights movement sounds awfully feminine — Merkwurdichliebe
hahaha. Nicely done. I think that single statement finds a way to offend everyone involved. — ZhouBoTong
That remains to be seen. — Anaxagoras
The problem, and what [many feminists today] are not saying,” Steinem told the crowd, “is that women of color in general—and especially black women—have always been more likely to be feminist than white women.” — Anaxagoras
The guy said he wanted support groups where men come together. That probably would break down pretty quickly because of the differences in experiences between races. — frank
They say the Korean War laid a foundation for the advancement of black rights because for many white men who fought in that war, it was their first experience fighting side by side with blacks. There was a documentary about it where white men who lived through that explained what it was like to discover that things you'd been told were untrue. It was pretty poignant. Is it necessary that we have a war in order to talk to each other? — frank
By whom? You? I'll alert all feminists to report to you for ideological inspection promptly. s/ — NKBJ
I interpret this differently than you. — NKBJ
But women of all colors and backgrounds are (to varying degrees perhaps) drawn to feminism because its core values are humanist — NKBJ
Furthermore, the movement is clearly actively working against that very issue. So you're a bit late to the party to be calling feminists out for this. — NKBJ
I shouldn't have to point this out, but most issues that feminists stand for are human issues that affect women of all colors: abortion rights, equal pay, being able to speak out in cases of assault, protection from domestic violence, and so on. Or do you contend that women of color aren't interested in those things? — NKBJ
I interpret this differently than you.
— NKBJ
Of course, as is everything in history that folks do when black folks have a different perspective... — Anaxagoras
No, incorrect.Not discounting Senator Ducksworth's sacrifice, but she chose to serve of her own volition and without a social obligation to do so, while the same can't be said of many young men in service. — Not Steve
Yet to mimic the women's movement or any human rights movement would be whimsical. Playing the victimhood and greivance politcs would be simply awful and laughable. Because with arguing that men are victims you obviously have to have the oppressor. Well, who would that be? Women? [i[Really?[/i]I think there are enough common interests for men to warrant some kind of political attention, or at the least, a social movement that recognizes their struggles and offers support. Community support is something troubled men aren't taught to seek or expect. — Not Steve
Because with arguing that men are victims you obviously have to have the oppressor. — ssu
The simple fact is that you should be far more exact on just what is the problem and what you want to be done. Let's say that too many men are taking their lives or using alcohol and drugs or ending up on their couch watching TV and playing video games. Well, fight then that by perhaps embracing manhood (or something). Start to change those views that make men difficult to seek help with programs and methods that don't carry a stigma, but would be contrary to that. How can you avoid burn out, PTSD or other mental problems before you have them in a high stress environment. How to help your friend. That would sound totally different. But don't assert that it's some human rights issue and men are the victims. — ssu
But does she know what it's like to be unable to express emotions, things as simple as fear and pain, without the possibility of being outcast and labeled weak? Does she know what it's like to have pent up aggression with no way of relieving it, and to be ostracized as dangerous and problematic when that aggression shows? To fear being accused of rape, and labeled a monster even when found innocent?
Does she know what it's like to be expected to face the horrors of war, to die a violent death, or to return, broken, to a home where one no longer belongs? No. She can never know, because either through biology or millennia of social conditioning, those are not her burdens to bear. She does not envy them, just as men do not envy physical vulnerability or the pain of childbirth. Therein lies my key point: the sexes are not the same, the challenges they face are not the same, and treating them the same can only bring about hardship for one, the other, or both. — Not Steve
A male politician probably won't introduce a law to deny men voting rights, but he may dismiss laws aimed at addressing female-on-male rape. — Not Steve
And who's to say that reproductive rights is a uniquely female issue? What about men forced to pay child support for children conceived without their knowledge, because a woman lied about being on birth control? — Not Steve
Several of the issues I listed are exclusive to men, and all affect men disproportionately. Being coerced into military service only happens to men; women may join, but there has never been pressure for them to do so. Women are never discouraged from seeking emotional support; they're expected to seek it, and that support is almost always available to them. This should not be a competition for which sex has it worse. — Not Steve
This is the reason why it won't work. For victimhood to be successfull there has to be a common feeling of guilt and wrongdoing, the need for others to prove that they are supportive of the victim. Then the 'victim' is listened to and his/her/they(?) demands can be taken seriously."Men's rights groups", or at least the ones I'm familiar with, are indeed seeking to address the problems you have mentioned (and like their counter parts, have become obsessed with the virtue of victim-hood). It's almost impossible for them to not frame men as a victim because that's the format that sells (because it induces rage) — VagabondSpectre
For victimhood to be successfull there has to be a common feeling of guilt and wrongdoing, the need for others to prove that they are supportive of the victim. Then the 'victim' is listened to and his/her/they(?) demands can be taken seriously....
....Yet to argue that males are victims is hilarious. Just who will feel guilty about men? — ssu
in both cases the "White guilt" and perhaps "Male guilt" in the case of universal suffrage was a way to achieve those goals by using the victimhood card. — ssu
Simply put it, identity politics is a dead end in this issue. But as I said, these problems that modern males have can be dealt in totally different ways. — ssu
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